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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

Old 17th Sep 2013, 17:45
  #1781 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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OMONEZ - reading the other 90 pages before you post might help.

DB

Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 17th Sep 2013 at 17:45.
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 17:47
  #1782 (permalink)  
 
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So what do we do?
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 18:05
  #1783 (permalink)  
 
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I will not rise to your cheap bait. Check my posts on this thread. How do we move on? What have we done wrong in training, assumptions!.
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 19:33
  #1784 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Originally Posted by HeliComparator View Post
Slowing below Vy seems a bad idea to me - on the back of the drag curve its very easy to lose too much speed. Then the regulatos will want to know what you will do if an engine fails in IMC below Vy, etc etc.

Personally I think even slowing to Vy can be too much if there is a significant crosswind, since the drift angle can become significant, resulting in pilots looking in the wrong place for the lights and possibly rendering one pilot unsighted at the moment its decided to go visual.

Yes, a helicopter can do both these things but the primary aim should be a safe landing somewhere, not a landing at the nominated destination but with reduced safety margin.

Aggressive visual manoeuvring at low speed in marginal weather (big flare to slow down) just seems a recipe for disaster, and for what benefit?
HC, I have not flown in the NS, so it may be different there, but on the Canadian East Coast there are weeks where approaches to minimums (ie. you consistently need the second approach to get in, or you just don't) are the norm. You, DB, and others have advocated several things that make me leery.

1) everyone keeps stating the 225 autopilot, or EC standard autopilot, is perfect. Bull$hit. It was designed by people, there are places it will not be adequate. Forgot this at your own risk! You may not have seen them yet, but eventually someone will!

2) when at true minimums on the approach, one pilot is on the dials and the other is looking out. If the weather was good enough for both to be looking for visual references (outside) then it wouldn't be an approach to minimums! One pilot decides. The other maintains a back-up on instruments. There is no aggressive manouevering (sp?, i don't care really). There is a whole runway, or rig, in front of you.

And CDFA/dive-and-drive (what a crap term!), is it really that hard to see the differences? Or are all the endless questions on here from people who fly neither helicopters or IFR?

If you are actually planning to successfully land an approach in minimum weather, these are things you should have thought about long ago!
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 20:22
  #1785 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I am afraid, Pilot and Apprentice, that there are many on this forum who have never flown an ARA, Localizer or any non precision approach nor for that matter a helicopter in an offshore environment.
Many who critize the PUMA, 225 and / or the 92 have never even been in one.
Still this is a rumour network so you have to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Notice for example that many seem to think that an ARA is a straight in and completely ignore the offset which is going to put the rig at either the 1030 or 1330 position at mimima. Excepting of course where a visual has been attained earlier and a 'visual continue' call made with perhaps a heading change made from the offset back towards the rig.

I too dispise the term "Dive and Drive."

Don't worry about the spelling. On some threads the rule seems to be "if you can not argue against the logic -attack the grammar, spelling or syntax even when the person's first language is not english."

Having stated that there are some here who are very experienced and knowledgeable.
We will not change the world on this forum but some folks have some very good ideas and it is worth waiting for some gem of wisdom to heave over the horizon.
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 21:21
  #1786 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know if there will be another interim AAIB report on this, and if so about when? Or is that it for official info now until the full report comes out in presumably a year or so?
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 21:44
  #1787 (permalink)  
 
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Another interrim will usually only happen if they find something that needs action.
This generally implies that a hazard has been identified which should be addressed before the full report is complete.
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 22:22
  #1788 (permalink)  
GJM
 
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Yes I read the report and know what it says but just because any engine is running upon impact that doesn't categorically mean there was sufficient fuel
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Old 17th Sep 2013, 22:35
  #1789 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GJM View Post
Yes I read the report and know what it says but just because any engine is running upon impact that doesn't categorically mean there was sufficient fuel
Yes it does. Maybe you have no experience of gas turbine engines (in which case I wonder why you are trying to push an agenda of running out of fuel), but with such an engine, there is either fuel being pumped in, or once the fuel level gets too low, air gets entrained with the fuel and a pocket of air in the fuel line results in a momentary fuel interruption which puts the flame out and the engines ceases to function.

In any case, if the engine was "running but with insufficient fuel" aka losing power, there would be a report of low rotor rpm which there wasn't. The scenario does in no way fit running out of fuel. Why not make another post suggesting that the pilots were beamed out of the cockpit by aliens? After all, they survived when some passengers didn't. Maybe they weren't aboard when the heli hit the sea?
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 00:24
  #1790 (permalink)  
 
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Now.....Now HC.....the wee callow fellow does have a point.....not much...but a point.

They could have arrived with out their planned reserve fuel....or something akin to that.....but even then both engines would be happy as Clams as they would not know it until they did in fact get a sudden and complete injection of either air or sea water.

Is he reluctant to state he thinks they were short of fuel and thus were doing something in extremis to ensure they made visual contact with the surface so they would not have to do a Missed Approach?

If that is what he is saying....he should either say that or keep his musing to himself I would suggest.

How he would arrive at that view is a topic that I would dearly love to hear him explain.

That would beat CSI and Criminal Minds best episodes combined into one wouldn't it?
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 07:11
  #1791 (permalink)  
 
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I am sure that eventually the engines did get an injection of seawater but the report states engines running normally and producing power on impact - if there was a fuel starvation/interruption issue they wouldn't have written that phrase and we wouldn't be speculating how the crew managed to fly a serviceable helicopter into the water.
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 07:51
  #1792 (permalink)  
 
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SAS

That (remote) scenario wouldn't make sense. Apart from anything else, if they knew they were low on fuel they would surely have gone for best glide range speed (? 80kts ish) on the approach, not got behind the drag curve. And if they didn't know, the approach would have been with normal speed and profile until a sudden departure from both as it ran out.
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 09:59
  #1793 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
They could have arrived with out their planned reserve fuel....or something akin to that.....
Like I've already said a few posts above, if they had been in that position, then the crew would have already declared a PAN and/or a MAYDAY due to their fuel state. ATC never even received a MAYDAY call.

I understand that the 'run out of fuel scenario' is still a popular rumour amongst some of the offshore community. This might be the reasoning behind GJM's ill informed posts.
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 10:30
  #1794 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to me we've pretty much exhausted this discussion. The answers are on the CVR

Either they were aware of their situation, in which case it'll be on the CVR, or they weren't aware, so an equally significant absence of infromation on the CVR.

Either way, it's likely to be a long time before any such evidence sees the light of day. M'learned friend will see to that.
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 16:05
  #1795 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Up north
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Having read and taken part in this thread it seems to me that the autopilot/coupler/FMS fitted to modern helicopters has become too complicated!
The talk of which control does what function at a particular time - upper and lower modes seems to to over complicate what should be simple evolutions.

What do we want the coupler to do in the simple IFR environment of NS offshore flying?

We want it to fly:-

1. A coupled ILS down to DH where if not countermanded it will carry out a missed approach.

2. A LOC/DME approach horizontal profile where it will level at the set MDH and when commanded carry out a missed approach.

3. A VOR/DME approach horizontal profile where it will level at the set MDH and when commanded carry out a missed approach.

4. A Rig Radar approach horizontal profile where it will offset at 5deg at 1.5nm, 10deg at 1nm and if commanded at 0.75nm a 45deg turn away from the rig and climb to SA or preselected altitude.

6. A visual night approach as prescribed in the company Ops Manual

5. A system for maintaining altitude and navigating along a pre-programmed route with easy access to how much fuel there will be at each way-point and destination/diversion.

Certain safety features can also be programmed into the coupler - such as min speed for a certain type of approach.

These simple functions should be easy to program and activate from one control panel and it should be obvious what approach has been selected.

I am sure that a simpler coupler would be welcomed by NS crews but I am afraid it will never happen as the "geeks" who design these systems always want to add more and more capabilites - a bit like buying a laptop - it always has far more capabilities than you require!!

It was quite telling that DB found the S92 display confusing even though he is one of the pilots pushing more and more automation.

My view is that the coupler is there to help you fly the a/c - more accurately if required - not to take over the flying of the a/c!

HF
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 16:50
  #1796 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Hit on the nail! Maybe 2 years before we see the final report.
All types in the North Sea have problems!
Bitching about types doesn't help.
How can all that experience be better put to use?
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Old 18th Sep 2013, 17:48
  #1797 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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And a suitable alternate?
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Old 19th Sep 2013, 00:46
  #1798 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I'm asking a question.
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Old 19th Sep 2013, 07:35
  #1799 (permalink)  
 
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Serf

Of course he would have had a suitable alternate such as Kirkwall, Wick or Bergen depending on the forecasts. With the following TAFs, if you are a pilot, which alternate would you have chosen?

TAF AMD EGPB 231452Z 2315/2324 14020G30KT 6000 FEW002 BKN005
PROB30 2318/2324 4000 BR BKN006=

TAF COR EGPB 231700Z 2318/2403 14020G30KT 2500 BR BKN003
TEMPO 2321/2403 6000 SHRA SCT005
PROB30 TEMPO 2322/2403 +SHRA=

TAF EGPC 231355Z 2315/2324 15015KT 5000 HZ FEW003
PROB30 TEMPO 2315/2324 9999 NSW=

TAF ENBR 231400Z 2315/2415 15008KT 9999 FEW040 BKN080=

TAF EGPA 231355Z 2315/2324 18018KT 2000 BR BKN001
TEMPO 2315/2321 6000 NSW SCT002=
HF

Last edited by Hummingfrog; 19th Sep 2013 at 07:37.
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Old 19th Sep 2013, 08:55
  #1800 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Yes Hummingfrog I do fly and was responding to a posting which has now been deleted.
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