AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
I worked for Bristow in the "good ol' days" when the "Old Man" owned it.
He got his Pound of Flesh....but he understood what Loyalty was all about....that it was a two way street.
In those days....the company's moral compass was internalized in one Man, a real Helicopter Pilot in every essence of the definition, and as such Management understood what the business was all about.
Today....at best....that "moral compass" is absent. The Owners and Board of Directors at best might sometimes "ride" in a helicopter as part of their perks and privileges but know absolutely nothing about helicopters per se.
Loyalty in today's business world is to the the Quarterly Report....and nothing that negatively impacts the contents of that Report is going to be allowed.
He got his Pound of Flesh....but he understood what Loyalty was all about....that it was a two way street.
In those days....the company's moral compass was internalized in one Man, a real Helicopter Pilot in every essence of the definition, and as such Management understood what the business was all about.
Today....at best....that "moral compass" is absent. The Owners and Board of Directors at best might sometimes "ride" in a helicopter as part of their perks and privileges but know absolutely nothing about helicopters per se.
Loyalty in today's business world is to the the Quarterly Report....and nothing that negatively impacts the contents of that Report is going to be allowed.
C53204 - if that becomes the case, it will out of ignorance. Yes the Super Puma family has borne the brunt of recent accidents, but also it is the type that has flown by far the most hours out of Aberdeen. If you remove the SP, without addressing any underlying causes of these accidents such as cultural issues, all you will do is move the problem onto another fleet and repeat the process all over again. That would be rather daft!
As I posted earlier, none of the recent 5 events are fundamentally the fault of the aircraft, all were the fault of the operating and maintenance culture (latest one aside for the time being of course).
If the industry is driven by ill informed mass hysteria that would be very unfortunate, though not totally unexpected. Lets try not to encourage them.
As I posted earlier, none of the recent 5 events are fundamentally the fault of the aircraft, all were the fault of the operating and maintenance culture (latest one aside for the time being of course).
If the industry is driven by ill informed mass hysteria that would be very unfortunate, though not totally unexpected. Lets try not to encourage them.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 26th Aug 2013 at 15:01.
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No it isn't.
In fact it was what I was eluding to when I wrote:
With a privately owned company you don't need to have "large numbers of people to be on board before any meaningful changes can take place" in fact all you need is someone who understands the business and possesses a management style which can effectively manage the needs of both staff and customers.
But, as it is unlikely that we shall see a return to large privately owned helicopter companies, some other system needs to be developed and I don't see that happening without the national aviation authorities becoming more involved.
In fact it was what I was eluding to when I wrote:
Most public companies require large numbers of people to be on board before any meaningful changes can take place and whenever one or two individuals come up with proposals, even if they are sound, there are invariably others who are eagre to challenge them, to emphasise the bottom line (which shareholders love) and find justifications for maintaining the status quo.
But, as it is unlikely that we shall see a return to large privately owned helicopter companies, some other system needs to be developed and I don't see that happening without the national aviation authorities becoming more involved.
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It would seem appropriate that on the first flight after the Super Puma has been returned to service, the owners, board of directors, and those in the oil company responsible for awarding the contract are the very first passengers to ride on the first Aberdeen to rig North Sea voyage, preferably on a lively day, returning at night....
It might influence their priorities.
It might influence their priorities.
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Mary, here's what they did only a matter of weeks ago when the puma's that were grounded returned to service.
BBC News - Super Puma EC 225 returns to service after ditchings
I think it flew to Alwyn North.
BBC News - Super Puma EC 225 returns to service after ditchings
I think it flew to Alwyn North.
Mary
Influence their priorities? Could you clarify this please? If you are making any reference to cost cutting and H&S I'm sure we would all like to hear your comments. In this day and age the majority of industries are unable to compromise H&S, and plough many thousands into making sure that things are done correctly.
I do appreciate that many of these procedures are arse covering exercises for company Directors etc but I'm convinced that there is no corner cutting when it comes to the aviation industry in offshore operations.
I do appreciate that many of these procedures are arse covering exercises for company Directors etc but I'm convinced that there is no corner cutting when it comes to the aviation industry in offshore operations.
Lots of questions begged by this accident....and in time they will be answered as due to the fatalities and it having happened in the UK and not Nigeria.....the AAIB shall investigate it fully and report their finding to the Public.
Did Bristow ever report what happened in Nigeria to their SP that went for a swim?
Did Bristow ever report what happened in Nigeria to their SP that went for a swim?
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Do you know what, SAS? I don't necessarily agree with some of your posts but you hit the nail on the head when you talked about your days in Bristow in post #344.
I gave BHL 40 years of service and saw a huge transformation of ethics and management practices - most of them not too clever for the Company personnel but perceived good for the share holders
Mike, thanks for the good wishes. I am still missing flying tho........
TC
I gave BHL 40 years of service and saw a huge transformation of ethics and management practices - most of them not too clever for the Company personnel but perceived good for the share holders
Mike, thanks for the good wishes. I am still missing flying tho........
TC
Last edited by TipCap; 26th Aug 2013 at 15:58.
SASless
Were there fatalities in Bristow's Nigeria incident? And I understand it is 3rd world country, but surely there is a minimum standard required for investigations worldwide following any aviation accident?
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Lots of questions begged by this accident....
Beg The Question // Get it right.
No Fatalities in the Nigeria Accident.....but one does wonder how a well trained crew in a very capable helicopter fails to succeed in a Takeoff from an offshore Rig in benign weather. It is not like it is a "secret" that it happened. But, it does seem to be a "Secret" as to why it happened.
A video taken by one of the passengers onboard at the time showing the pax and crew in life rafts was on Youtube for a very short while before it was yanked.
In it could be heard the Co-Pilot making some comments about what happened.
Perhaps i will have to buy some shares in Bristow and attend the Annual Meeting to get my answer as then I would have vested interest and of course Childs et al would want to ensure I was happy with my investment.....right!
A video taken by one of the passengers onboard at the time showing the pax and crew in life rafts was on Youtube for a very short while before it was yanked.
In it could be heard the Co-Pilot making some comments about what happened.
Perhaps i will have to buy some shares in Bristow and attend the Annual Meeting to get my answer as then I would have vested interest and of course Childs et al would want to ensure I was happy with my investment.....right!
No fatalities in the Bristow Nigeria 332L ditching. I seem to recall seeing a Nigerian AAIB report some time ago, but can't find it on the internet. There were no technical factors in the ditching (apart from needing bigger engines!)
SAS - they were contemplating landing, not taking off, and the weather was a big factor.
SAS - they were contemplating landing, not taking off, and the weather was a big factor.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 26th Aug 2013 at 16:02.
One of those tried and true Nigerian Rig Radar approaches in the Monsoon downpours was it?
The kind where the Radar goes bright Red from Attenuation and one reverts to GPS and the Mk I eyeball whilst scooting along just above the Oggin trying to maintain visual with the surface and looking for something man-made to appear between the wind shield Wiper blade?
"Contemplation" meaning giving it a go....rather than just pissing off home for a cup of Tea and waiting for better weather.
The kind where the Radar goes bright Red from Attenuation and one reverts to GPS and the Mk I eyeball whilst scooting along just above the Oggin trying to maintain visual with the surface and looking for something man-made to appear between the wind shield Wiper blade?
"Contemplation" meaning giving it a go....rather than just pissing off home for a cup of Tea and waiting for better weather.
Last edited by SASless; 26th Aug 2013 at 16:08.
I too am not immune from pressure....either self inflicted or by those from up above.
After a couple of the times "contemplating".....I started opting for the Tea instead. The pay check was the same either way!
After a couple of the times "contemplating".....I started opting for the Tea instead. The pay check was the same either way!
I think that trying to turn HUMS from a monitoring system into a warning system may be too difficult. It was always designed to try and pick up trends in component's characteristics and then as experience was built up look for trigger points to replace that component.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/522...ml#post8011027
In essence HUMS moves maintenance away from reactive based maintenance to pro-active maintenance. So in the end the HUMS software is designed to maintain the 'health' of a harmonic signature...not the imminent failure of the component.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/522...ml#post8011027
In essence HUMS moves maintenance away from reactive based maintenance to pro-active maintenance. So in the end the HUMS software is designed to maintain the 'health' of a harmonic signature...not the imminent failure of the component.
UKpax
Are there any helicopters that have a system to slow descent in the event of a gearbox or rotor failure?
Given the air industry builds redundancy into their critical systems, its always struck me that the helicopter gearbox/drive shaft is a system where redundancy seems to have been deliberately ignored - I presume there's no practical solution, is there?
UKpaxman
I guess the point I'm making is that I can't think of another form of civilian transport that places 100% reliance on something as complex as a gearbox with no redundancy in the event of a catastrophic failure.
I think you will also find, in most cases, that in a reasonably well maintained aircraft, that failures which will cause a gear box to go completely TU typically give off warning signs before all goes south. (Vibration, noise, oil temp/pressure rise, lights flashing ... ) You get a chance to land/ditch before it all turns into horribly deformed metal.
I also think that as even the best assembly may develop problems, if I were required to sit in one of those busses to go to my work, I would be a lot happier if the flotation gear was improved.
colobri
Now to my final point; an anology. You're driving your Mondeo along a road and come upon a serious accident involving another Mondeo. Or maybe it wasn't even you, but a family member of yours who told you about the accident. Either way, does it make sense to immediately get rid your Mondeo and join a clamour for all Mondeos to be recalled, before anyone knows the cause?
cyclic
Unfortunately, in order not too scare the living daylights out of the work force, the dunker is a very gentle affair in a warm swimming pool. I can assure you the military version is much more realistic but half the workforce wouldn't pass the course. Where do you draw the line of realism against risk?
Well said. Mitchaa
Double engine failure just does not happen (Unless it ran out of fuel) so kind of rules that one out too.
HC:
You made a point about a model of helicopter where engines fail toward Idle, which I presume is a feature of the ECU/DECU. (If I guessed that wrongly, please correct me). That seems to me a very odd design feature.
If an ECU / DECU fails toward high power, you can control NR with incr pitch and then (with a good crew) your non-flyer can cut the DECU / ECU out via cockpit switches or engine control options ... depends on model, I suppost. (I am most familiar with S-70 class and its engine controls). This would hopefully leave one some version of manual fuel control, and you always have some NR in flying range going for you.
If it fails to low power, or both do, you droop. That can be bad three ways:
lift loss
controllability change
typically generators may kick off making for more trouble.
From what you posted, and being not familiar with the aircraft in question, I don't understand this design decision.
What's the upside of that approach?
(Failures that are "graceful degradations" being preferred to "suddenly it's all gone" from a design point of view)
Oil Company points finger at the Operators.......Operators point fingers at Oil Company. Pilots point finger at Company.....Company points finger at Pilots. Everyone points finger at Authority.....Passengers Union points fingers at everyone else......and the Authority eats the pies and collects a nice Pension.
Just waiting for Benny Hill to run by, pursued by a few scantily clad lovelies ...
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 26th Aug 2013 at 16:43.
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As I posted earlier, none of the recent 5 events are fundamentally the fault of the aircraft, all were the fault of the operating and maintenance culture (latest one aside for the time being of course).
Had the emlub system been correctly designed (and more importantly tested!!) it's likely both aircraft would have been put down on dry land. The fact there was no loss of life in either of these incidents was primarily down to the fact that sea state was favourable for egress from a ditched aircraft (ie. luck).
Unfamiliar with the UK investigatory process, so am asking if anyone has a guess as to when preliminary data from the recorders will be made public?
Last edited by MoodyMan; 26th Aug 2013 at 16:42.
JohnDixon
John the last news I saw was about the machine been recovered on to a salvage ship today, so might be a day or two before the recorders are released for investigation