AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
I see Tim Ripley is spouting absolute rubbish in the P&J this morning. "There is a slim possibility that the pilot may have pressed the wrong buttons which would have led to the engine cutting out" is just one of his daft ideas!
Is he related to Jim by any chance?
Is he related to Jim by any chance?
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Over 800 Super Pumas built....more than 4.5 million flying hours.....operating in North Sea UK sector for more than 30 years....lead aircraft with more than 40,000 hours....and flying with 100 operators world wide.
Lets get real, ignore the crap, and put this in perspective.
Lets get real, ignore the crap, and put this in perspective.
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Over 800 Super Pumas built....more than 4.5 million flying hours.....operating in North Sea UK sector for more than 30 years....lead aircraft with more than 40,000 hours....and flying with 100 operators world wide.
Lets get real, ignore the crap, and put this in perspective.
Lets get real, ignore the crap, and put this in perspective.
Sudden loss of power?
We simply don't know what happened yet and pilot error may well be a factor but in my gut I don't think this is a pilot error accident. Very untechnical I know and I may well be proved wrong but that's my inclination at the moment.
Does anyone know when the AAIB are likely to make any kind of initial statement?
I imagine it will be quite soon, next few days. A brief look at the FDR data should be able to show mechanical failure vs pilot error, and the approximate nature of any mechanical failure (engines, transmission etc) and with the pressure on the nation's oil industry I'm sure they will give us a clue as soon as they can.
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DMackie
Come on, lets get the facts right, shall we!
Of the five incidents you refer to, one was CFIT, two were precautionary landings/ditchings and one was a catastrophic failure of the gearbox. The fifth, we don't know yet!
The BBC News website is still referring to the EC225 ditchings last year as 'crashes'. If we follow that analogy, the BA Airbus that lost it's engine cowlings a few months ago, should be designated as a 'crash' not a precautionary landing! Just because the Airbus crew could fly around to reduce fuel before returning to Heathrow, does that make it really any different to the EC225 crews carrying their landings?
Four fatalities are four too many. But as HC has posted earlier, more than four people are killed on Aberdeenshire roads every week and no one really cares, except the relatives.
As a pilot currently flying the AS332L, I am affected by this tragic accident, as I'm sure are all the North Sea pilots. I want to know what happened just as much as anyone else. But let the AAIB do their job and publish an interim report before people start making ill informed decisions.
Bondu
Come on, lets get the facts right, shall we!
Of the five incidents you refer to, one was CFIT, two were precautionary landings/ditchings and one was a catastrophic failure of the gearbox. The fifth, we don't know yet!
The BBC News website is still referring to the EC225 ditchings last year as 'crashes'. If we follow that analogy, the BA Airbus that lost it's engine cowlings a few months ago, should be designated as a 'crash' not a precautionary landing! Just because the Airbus crew could fly around to reduce fuel before returning to Heathrow, does that make it really any different to the EC225 crews carrying their landings?
Four fatalities are four too many. But as HC has posted earlier, more than four people are killed on Aberdeenshire roads every week and no one really cares, except the relatives.
As a pilot currently flying the AS332L, I am affected by this tragic accident, as I'm sure are all the North Sea pilots. I want to know what happened just as much as anyone else. But let the AAIB do their job and publish an interim report before people start making ill informed decisions.
Bondu
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Seems to me as a "plank driver" that the only things holding up a heli are the rotating wings, so if the nut holding that assembly together fails, it doesn't make a very good glider.....
I also think that as even the best assembly may develop problems, if I were required to sit in one of those busses to go to my work, I would be a lot happier if the flotation gear was improved.
I also think that as even the best assembly may develop problems, if I were required to sit in one of those busses to go to my work, I would be a lot happier if the flotation gear was improved.
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"Unfortunately, in order not too scare the living daylights out of the work force, the dunker is a very gentle affair in a warm swimming pool. I can assure you the military version is much more realistic but half the workforce wouldn't pass the course. Where do you draw the line of realism against risk? "
A question if I may? In 1988 I did the dunker course at Yeovilton when I was an apprentice with Normalair Garrett. It was a "fun day out" as part of the activities of the apprentice and students association. I distinctly remember there being two north sea workers who did the course with us, and two trainee Jungly pilots as well. Now, assuming they were there "for real" and we were just filling empty seats in the dunker, is there any reason to suppose I didn't undergo the dunkings just as they did? No allowances could be made for a bunch of civvies having a bit of fun when their were real trainees taking part could they?
I remember it being tremendous fun (because my life wasn't on the line!) and remember doing the dunking upright with lights on, inverted with lights on and inverted in darkness. I also remember with some pride being given a thumbs up by a safety diver when one of our managers panicked in the inverted scenario and pushed past me to get out, when I paused to allow him to egress in front of me.
I only ask out of interest at the comment about how much more realistic the military one is over the civilian one, has something changed since my fun day out? I don't remember it being particularly onerous as long as you kept your head. . . all allowances made for the fact that I may have only participated in a part of the course and not the full monty of course.
A question if I may? In 1988 I did the dunker course at Yeovilton when I was an apprentice with Normalair Garrett. It was a "fun day out" as part of the activities of the apprentice and students association. I distinctly remember there being two north sea workers who did the course with us, and two trainee Jungly pilots as well. Now, assuming they were there "for real" and we were just filling empty seats in the dunker, is there any reason to suppose I didn't undergo the dunkings just as they did? No allowances could be made for a bunch of civvies having a bit of fun when their were real trainees taking part could they?
I remember it being tremendous fun (because my life wasn't on the line!) and remember doing the dunking upright with lights on, inverted with lights on and inverted in darkness. I also remember with some pride being given a thumbs up by a safety diver when one of our managers panicked in the inverted scenario and pushed past me to get out, when I paused to allow him to egress in front of me.
I only ask out of interest at the comment about how much more realistic the military one is over the civilian one, has something changed since my fun day out? I don't remember it being particularly onerous as long as you kept your head. . . all allowances made for the fact that I may have only participated in a part of the course and not the full monty of course.
But Mary, a helicopter can glide and land safely at virtually zero touchdown speed - a definite advantage over a FW especially one with 1 engine! And no, there isn't a nut holding the rotors on, that is a popular myth. They are actually held on by Araldite.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 26th Aug 2013 at 09:04.
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Regarding gliding, have you ever seen these?
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Jesus nut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bibby Polaris, dive support/heavy lift ship still on site but has moved to a location south of Grut Ness which suggests they are possibly now recovering the tail section and searching for any other parts on the seabed. Makes sense to do everything in one visit with a ship of that capability, I'm assuming sidescan, multibeam, ROV's and possibly divers onboard.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
For anyone getting a compressed map and big adverts on that link, 'refresh' or F5 expands the map and pushes down the ads.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
For anyone getting a compressed map and big adverts on that link, 'refresh' or F5 expands the map and pushes down the ads.
Last edited by Little cloud; 26th Aug 2013 at 09:53.
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Well said Bondu.
Lets wait until the AAIB come up with some ideas. With luck the CVR, IHUMS and FDR with the 2 pilots will show exactly what happened. There is so much speculation going on and I know we are a "Rumo(u)r" network but come on guys lets be sensible and not take cheap shots at each other
It was nice to see someone from the industry
albeit with another hat on talking some sense on TV. I even saw it in Wales!!
TC
Lets wait until the AAIB come up with some ideas. With luck the CVR, IHUMS and FDR with the 2 pilots will show exactly what happened. There is so much speculation going on and I know we are a "Rumo(u)r" network but come on guys lets be sensible and not take cheap shots at each other
It was nice to see someone from the industry
albeit with another hat on talking some sense on TV. I even saw it in Wales!!TC
Last edited by TipCap; 26th Aug 2013 at 09:47. Reason: grammar
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Valkyrie1500
With servicing and weather problems it's quite normal to fall behind normal scheduling and then there will be catch up for the next few days, so it can be quite normal for flights to be leaving at that time of the night to various offshore problems. The metar was fine but I for one disliked going out at night particularly in the winter. 0 degree isotherm low, rough seas, strong winds, heavy rain, reduced vis due to snow. As for summer all the above less 0 degree and snow but factor in fog, the North Sea crews earn their pay. Well done to you all and take care.
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Right, guys, I've already placed my order for Araldite Super Strong Epoxy Adhesive with Amazon....
And we glider pilots fasten our wings on with electrician's tape. I just wish when they put the gliders away they wouldn't leave the tape wadded up on the grass for somebody else to tidy up....
Back to my earlier post; it would be a comfort to the pax to improve the inflatable flotation devices so more likely to keep the fus right side up in the water.
And we glider pilots fasten our wings on with electrician's tape. I just wish when they put the gliders away they wouldn't leave the tape wadded up on the grass for somebody else to tidy up....
Back to my earlier post; it would be a comfort to the pax to improve the inflatable flotation devices so more likely to keep the fus right side up in the water.
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High level floats
Hi SAS,
An extract from an article I wrote earlier this year:
"The Safety Regulation Group (SRG) of the UK CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) published a paper in December 2005 entitled “Summary Report on Helicopter Ditching and Crashworthiness Research”, (CAA Paper 2005/06). In this report, the SRG used a number of other reports from 1984 to 2003, which had been commissioned by the CAA. The main conclusions of the 2005 report were that:-
• the testing done so far was inadequate as the waves tanks produced ‘regular’ rather than ‘irregular’ waves;
• float scoops fitted to emergency floats would enhance stability ‘at minimal costs’;
• additional high-level flotation devices to prevent total inversion should be fitted;
• the upper practical capsize limit for helicopters lies in the region of SS5 or SS6, but there is a significant risk of ditching in seas greater than SS6 in some areas of the operation (e.g. the northern North Sea);
• sea conditions should be defined in terms of a significant wave height, zero crossing wave period and wave spectrum shape;
• sea state steepness should be more rigorously defined.
Of the six findings of the CAA 2005 report listed above, five of them have not been acted upon:
• testing hasn’t been done using ‘irregular’ waves;
• float scoops haven’t been added;
• high-level floats haven’t been fitted;
• sea conditions are still not being defined as the report advised;
• wave ‘steepness’ hasn’t been addressed at all."
I fully agree with your point. But, alas, we have a 'regulator' in the UK which does nothing to enhance 'real' safety, only, as HC and others have posted, 'paper' safety. Just tick the boxes and rake in the money - who cares if people die.
bondu
An extract from an article I wrote earlier this year:
"The Safety Regulation Group (SRG) of the UK CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) published a paper in December 2005 entitled “Summary Report on Helicopter Ditching and Crashworthiness Research”, (CAA Paper 2005/06). In this report, the SRG used a number of other reports from 1984 to 2003, which had been commissioned by the CAA. The main conclusions of the 2005 report were that:-
• the testing done so far was inadequate as the waves tanks produced ‘regular’ rather than ‘irregular’ waves;
• float scoops fitted to emergency floats would enhance stability ‘at minimal costs’;
• additional high-level flotation devices to prevent total inversion should be fitted;
• the upper practical capsize limit for helicopters lies in the region of SS5 or SS6, but there is a significant risk of ditching in seas greater than SS6 in some areas of the operation (e.g. the northern North Sea);
• sea conditions should be defined in terms of a significant wave height, zero crossing wave period and wave spectrum shape;
• sea state steepness should be more rigorously defined.
Of the six findings of the CAA 2005 report listed above, five of them have not been acted upon:
• testing hasn’t been done using ‘irregular’ waves;
• float scoops haven’t been added;
• high-level floats haven’t been fitted;
• sea conditions are still not being defined as the report advised;
• wave ‘steepness’ hasn’t been addressed at all."
I fully agree with your point. But, alas, we have a 'regulator' in the UK which does nothing to enhance 'real' safety, only, as HC and others have posted, 'paper' safety. Just tick the boxes and rake in the money - who cares if people die.
bondu
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I suggest that one begins with the outstanding five recommendations of Bondu's report as well as implementing any valid recommendations made in the Sintef report.
High level floats
I seem to recall that UK CAA started a research project on high level floats, but it was taken over by EASA and is still lurking in their corridors of power.
There is a lengthy report here:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/rulemakin...inalreport.pdf
It also gets a brief mention here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetin...anoiac1201.pdf
Whether anything will even happen though...
There is a lengthy report here:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/rulemakin...inalreport.pdf
It also gets a brief mention here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetin...anoiac1201.pdf
Whether anything will even happen though...
Last edited by HeliComparator; 26th Aug 2013 at 10:35.