Near miss: parachutists and Bell LongRanger
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Age: 53
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done I'd say. They kept their heads and solved the problem. Arguing about whether it was the best solution is something we do only to help better prepare for or prevent a repeat.
AA777888, please remember that there are a lot of options between cruise and hover. LTE, downwash, high power demand, and the fact that a true hover at several thousand feet above the ground is impossible to accomplish make an attempt to do so very dangerous. With no usable references (too far away) it is all too easy to start sliding rear or sideward and, as SAS said, an imperceptible descent could become VRS in a flash.
Slow to a minimum controllable airspeed to reduce the wind strength and let the folks in the back do what they need to.
And, just me and my opinion, but I'd rather fly the no tail rotor autorotation down than try to jump out of a jetbox in an auto and look up at those blades!
Aesir, I agree about the best section of video.
AA777888, please remember that there are a lot of options between cruise and hover. LTE, downwash, high power demand, and the fact that a true hover at several thousand feet above the ground is impossible to accomplish make an attempt to do so very dangerous. With no usable references (too far away) it is all too easy to start sliding rear or sideward and, as SAS said, an imperceptible descent could become VRS in a flash.
Slow to a minimum controllable airspeed to reduce the wind strength and let the folks in the back do what they need to.
And, just me and my opinion, but I'd rather fly the no tail rotor autorotation down than try to jump out of a jetbox in an auto and look up at those blades!
Aesir, I agree about the best section of video.
Not sure what speed the pilot was flying at, but most skydives want me to slow Down to min few speedos they can hang on .the skids. He certainly seemed .to be going quite quick although it can be deceptive
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P&P--agreed! You expressed it better than I did.
Hughes500--a helicopter jump is more of an amusement park ride to jumpers as opposed to the normal elevator service. Something to put in the jump logbook, a different flight adventure, and there is often the desire to experience a zero/low speed exit that is not possible with a regular, fixed wing jumpship. Zero/low speed exits are more challenging as the lack of relative wind makes body control more difficult. They are also the only exits that provide a momentary sensation of falling as the acceleration to terminal is not nearly as pronounced when the jump merely consists of changing one's vector from say 80KN forward to 100KN (approx. terminal) downwards.
Hughes500--a helicopter jump is more of an amusement park ride to jumpers as opposed to the normal elevator service. Something to put in the jump logbook, a different flight adventure, and there is often the desire to experience a zero/low speed exit that is not possible with a regular, fixed wing jumpship. Zero/low speed exits are more challenging as the lack of relative wind makes body control more difficult. They are also the only exits that provide a momentary sensation of falling as the acceleration to terminal is not nearly as pronounced when the jump merely consists of changing one's vector from say 80KN forward to 100KN (approx. terminal) downwards.
Wrong a/c wrong passenger complement, wrong recovery procedure.
The damn a/c was a jet box with about as much LTE as a robbo. Everyone in the trade knows that Jet boxes have had their fair share of LTE issues in the past hence wrong a/c for that altitude and that AUM.
Second - too many 'amateur's' in the back of the cab. Would love to have seen the load chart for that pre launch.
Three might be mistaken but NEVER saw anyone talking to the pilot just a series of F words and frenetic activity.
Four - 'most' not all but most skydivers haven't a
clue what helos are all about and are more bother than the worth of it.
Five - a full exposed cabin is asking for trouble with amateurs.
Solution:
Use a 350 if you can't use a fenestron a/c or a notar - no issues with LTE or HOGE or any TR issues. Door control in these cabs is far superior and makes sure the PILOT is in charge and not the morons in the back.
A very thorough brief about cabin management and emergencies before getting airborne and constant comms en route.
IF this situation had then happened in my situation (though I doubt if the ingredients would have manifested themselves due to the above), Pax give pilot a running commentary. Bring cab to a hover (or reduce fwd wind flow to a minimum and brief "attached" moron to climb out onto skids to recover canopy without 60+kts of jet wash blowing it backwards into the exposed tail. Of course this wouldn't have been a problem with the fenestron/notar would it?
Agreed, the guy doing the retriving was on the ball but it was AFTER the morons got into the situation in the first place.
FFS guys - let's not defend the indefensible let's get it right FIRST time round eh?
SAS: stop waffling!
The damn a/c was a jet box with about as much LTE as a robbo. Everyone in the trade knows that Jet boxes have had their fair share of LTE issues in the past hence wrong a/c for that altitude and that AUM.
Second - too many 'amateur's' in the back of the cab. Would love to have seen the load chart for that pre launch.
Three might be mistaken but NEVER saw anyone talking to the pilot just a series of F words and frenetic activity.
Four - 'most' not all but most skydivers haven't a
clue what helos are all about and are more bother than the worth of it.Five - a full exposed cabin is asking for trouble with amateurs.
Solution:
Use a 350 if you can't use a fenestron a/c or a notar - no issues with LTE or HOGE or any TR issues. Door control in these cabs is far superior and makes sure the PILOT is in charge and not the morons in the back.
A very thorough brief about cabin management and emergencies before getting airborne and constant comms en route.
IF this situation had then happened in my situation (though I doubt if the ingredients would have manifested themselves due to the above), Pax give pilot a running commentary. Bring cab to a hover (or reduce fwd wind flow to a minimum and brief "attached" moron to climb out onto skids to recover canopy without 60+kts of jet wash blowing it backwards into the exposed tail. Of course this wouldn't have been a problem with the fenestron/notar would it?
Agreed, the guy doing the retriving was on the ball but it was AFTER the morons got into the situation in the first place.
FFS guys - let's not defend the indefensible let's get it right FIRST time round eh?
SAS: stop waffling!
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 10th Jul 2013 at 11:11.
TC.....
When you start posting in a polite manner.....I will stop poking you with a sharp stick to elicit a useful response from you.
You might take note of P&A, AA, and RW.....they get it.....you don't....as usual.
What Altitude was the Jet Box at?
What fuel load did it have?
What was the OAT?
What was the Weight of the Aircraft at Take Off?
When does LTE become an issue for the Jet Ranger?
SAS: stop waffling!
You might take note of P&A, AA, and RW.....they get it.....you don't....as usual.
What Altitude was the Jet Box at?
What fuel load did it have?
What was the OAT?
What was the Weight of the Aircraft at Take Off?
When does LTE become an issue for the Jet Ranger?
Thread Starter
TC,
Have you operated a 206 or 206L (this event was from a LongRanger, not a jetbox) on drops? I've never found it to be short of TR authority so I'd disagree with your assertions there, but jumpers generally need very close control. The driver's side doors should never come off, all jumps from the one side (away from the pilot) to ensure lateral CG isn't put at risk.
Like this, from an N reg R44
Have you operated a 206 or 206L (this event was from a LongRanger, not a jetbox) on drops? I've never found it to be short of TR authority so I'd disagree with your assertions there, but jumpers generally need very close control. The driver's side doors should never come off, all jumps from the one side (away from the pilot) to ensure lateral CG isn't put at risk.
Like this, from an N reg R44
TC
First I can assure you that one of the other jumpers in the back had comms with the pilot; for whatever reason the pilot chose to keep some forward airspeed. I did not have a chance to talk to the pilot afterwards.
In this event I cannot see how having doors on the aircraft would help, the pilot had cleared us to jump and I had checked the spot.
In this event I cannot see how having doors on the aircraft would help, the pilot had cleared us to jump and I had checked the spot.
Last edited by Skymong; 10th Jul 2013 at 12:01.
John Boy.....perhaps it is my Army background which handicaps me.....but I am confused by your statement.....compared to the photo!
Am I wrong to assume it was a Helmet Cam photo of the two very pretty jumpers taken by a fellow jumper also skid hanging when the photo was taken?
I know you Navy fellas were far brighter than we....you told us that often enough as I seem to recall.....but there would seem to be a slight conflict between your testimony and the evidence. (In both the post and your suggestion about the comparative IQ's of Diggers and Matelots!)
all jumps from the one side (away from the pilot) to ensure lateral CG isn't put at risk.
I know you Navy fellas were far brighter than we....you told us that often enough as I seem to recall.....but there would seem to be a slight conflict between your testimony and the evidence. (In both the post and your suggestion about the comparative IQ's of Diggers and Matelots!)
Thread Starter
It's your Army background 
I was alluding to the photo as being an example of putting lateral CG at risk. My company's experience was of a similar jump with two jumpers on each skid for a (supposed) synchronised drop, one off each side, step off, don't push, very thoroughly briefed.
So the two on the left pushed themselves off, the two on the right stayed on which added to the pilot's weight put the machine in a roll to starboard. The driver elected to go with the roll rather than risk stressing the mast, and went all the way round at the end of which there were no jumpers left on the right side either.
To this day we have no idea how they missed the blades, and a $5k mast inspection later we re-wrote the ops manual to allow jumpers only to depart from the opposite side to the pilot.
I was alluding to the photo as being an example of putting lateral CG at risk. My company's experience was of a similar jump with two jumpers on each skid for a (supposed) synchronised drop, one off each side, step off, don't push, very thoroughly briefed.
So the two on the left pushed themselves off, the two on the right stayed on which added to the pilot's weight put the machine in a roll to starboard. The driver elected to go with the roll rather than risk stressing the mast, and went all the way round at the end of which there were no jumpers left on the right side either.
To this day we have no idea how they missed the blades, and a $5k mast inspection later we re-wrote the ops manual to allow jumpers only to depart from the opposite side to the pilot.
Skymong:
" I did not have a chance to talk to the pilot afterwards".
Are you actually saying that after a potentially fatal for all concerned incident that you didn't have a full de-brief? that nobody involved had a de-brief?
Even with first hand, on the spot video to work from??
Sounds like a prize winning recipe for a repeat performance.
" I did not have a chance to talk to the pilot afterwards".
Are you actually saying that after a potentially fatal for all concerned incident that you didn't have a full de-brief? that nobody involved had a de-brief?
Even with first hand, on the spot video to work from??
Sounds like a prize winning recipe for a repeat performance.
On the S-58T....the most important part of the Jump was for the Jumpers to remember to shut the door on the way out....as showing up at ABZ with an Open Door would beg questions I did not wish to answer!
There was a de-brief and written accounts were taken from everyone involved, however the pilot was not around at the same time as me so I didn't get a chance to discuss it with him.
No need to answer if you would prefer not to, but which jumper were you in the video?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a777888
I agree the initial sensation is great falling out of a RW aircraft. the ultimate was the balloon jumps I did at Eloy in Arizona.
At the end of the day we can all dicuss this till we're blue in the face. Truth is, heli jumps are common all over the place. This jumper couldn't be bothered to make sure his pin was in tight enough. The onus is on him.
I've been involved in the sport since my sixteenth birthday and have jumped a/c with massive prop wash and exit speeds. C130, Antonovs etc. Never had a bag leave my back without me commanding it to.
****e packing.....
I agree the initial sensation is great falling out of a RW aircraft. the ultimate was the balloon jumps I did at Eloy in Arizona.
At the end of the day we can all dicuss this till we're blue in the face. Truth is, heli jumps are common all over the place. This jumper couldn't be bothered to make sure his pin was in tight enough. The onus is on him.
I've been involved in the sport since my sixteenth birthday and have jumped a/c with massive prop wash and exit speeds. C130, Antonovs etc. Never had a bag leave my back without me commanding it to.
****e packing.....
SASless:
Helicopter Safety | Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness [LTE]
Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Loss of Tail-Rotor Effectiveness - Bell 206
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/143...overy-etc.html
Post number #7 (and yours is post number#8.
[Check your PM's].
All in all, there remains no merit in this typical Sunny Sunday afternoon wazzex chucking a couple of adrenalin junkies out the back of the L.
Thank God we weren't reading their obituaries - then everyone would be coming out with all sorts of armchair theories. Well you have it on a plate now because fate stepped in and saved the day - AMATEURS (including the pilot).
Helicopter Safety | Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness [LTE]
Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Loss of Tail-Rotor Effectiveness - Bell 206
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/143...overy-etc.html
Post number #7 (and yours is post number#8.
[Check your PM's].
All in all, there remains no merit in this typical Sunny Sunday afternoon wazzex chucking a couple of adrenalin junkies out the back of the L.
Thank God we weren't reading their obituaries - then everyone would be coming out with all sorts of armchair theories. Well you have it on a plate now because fate stepped in and saved the day - AMATEURS (including the pilot).
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 55 degrees north ish.
Age: 53
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TC, you are out of line.
These jumpers were paying customers, the AC was flown within the limitations laid down by the BPA and the CAA. It couldn't happen otherwise.
The young jumper made a mistake, no question, but to label everyone with an 'idiot' caption, only shows you up for what you really are.
You've really ******* tickled my anger gland, but I guess that was your intention.
PS. It's not about adrenalin. Moronic and Ill informed.
These jumpers were paying customers, the AC was flown within the limitations laid down by the BPA and the CAA. It couldn't happen otherwise.
The young jumper made a mistake, no question, but to label everyone with an 'idiot' caption, only shows you up for what you really are.
You've really ******* tickled my anger gland, but I guess that was your intention.
PS. It's not about adrenalin. Moronic and Ill informed.
