Bell 505 Jet Ranger X
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Paris
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Just saw that message that my box was full... I emptied it. Thank you so much for this feedback. Very convincing. I am moving forward : investigating what maintenance facility could take care of it not too far from where I live (not so many in France do Bell), discussing insurance quotes, how to get my QT (no certified French instructors yet), etc... But these are details... Very close to making the jump. Merci encore for your response.
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Paris
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Thought you were delighted with the 505!?! Why are you already selling it?
Thanks for the invitation that I will probably honor of you have not sold it before Christmas. I have a flight under préparation to London for December
Thanks for the invitation that I will probably honor of you have not sold it before Christmas. I have a flight under préparation to London for December
Don’t want to sell it but I also don’t really want two helicopters!! I am trying to sell my 109 but am not prepared to give it away especially as it’s just come out of Annual and is flying beautifully!! I did a trip the other day and flew at 130 knots ( approx same speed as 505 ) and it used just 170 litres an hour ...not bad !
Nigel, IMHO this thread has taken a seriously anticlimactic turn ever since you're trying to get rid of that A/C that you so heavily advertised for the whole time. I'm anticipating a certain hat to be uneaten in celebration. 
That must have been quite the paramount annual performed on your 109!
That must have been quite the paramount annual performed on your 109!
I don’t really understand your point !
The 505 is fabulously and I would love to keep it .
The 109 needs to be sold . If I can’t sell it then I have no choice but to sell the 505 !!! Simples ...
The 505 is fabulously and I would love to keep it .
The 109 needs to be sold . If I can’t sell it then I have no choice but to sell the 505 !!! Simples ...
You seemed to be very eager to put your 505 to work ASAP at the fixed running cost due to warranty and m/x program as long as it roughly does what it says on the box. If I remember correctly you even considered buying a second one a while back.
Were you not aware of that the whole time anyway? I thought you bought the 505 as a work horse? What changed?
Were you not aware of that the whole time anyway? I thought you bought the 505 as a work horse? What changed?
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I must admit I have the same questions as whoknows. As I am new to this forum and have done quite a bit of investigation to choose my future new turbine, I had enjoyed reading the full 35 pages of threads since 2014 on the 505 this past week. I found them very interesting. I had - without knowing the individuals behind - gradually fell at ease with certain logic patterns and arguments developed by certain members and less by other whose logic and analytical objectivity seemed biased or simply dictated by emotions or speculations instead of facts. I identified quite a bit with your approach nigelh, especially because your praise for the 505 was strong and consistent over months. It did not seem your approach was from some kind of impulse buying (which is fine too!). But I am now quite puzzled... When I ordered my Porsche 911 Targa GTS last year, it is because I had decided to sell my old Lamborghini Espada. And when I received the 911, that's just what I did. To put instantly my 911 for sale the day I received it would just mean that I regretted buying it and/or wanted to keep my Espada. Which is another way to say that I would have realized I had made a mistake. But perhaps we French are not enough "creative" and narrow in our imagination of possible logic patterns. In any case, I am sure you will be able to sell it! Would love to rent some hours from you if you have not sold it before Christmas as I mentioned prior. A bientôt.
Guys, go easy on Nigel. It should be easy to see his conundrum. He's got a 109 which is obviously a beautiful, sexy ship. But the market for used 109's may be...well...not very robust. There are about 50 of them for sale on Controller.com. You can pick up a "nice" older one with some time remaining for around USD $500,000 - yikes! Versus $1.5 million for a 505?
Sell the 109?
A potential 109 buyer will know that he's got the 505 and needs to "dump" the twin (even if that is not absolutely true). It's superfluous. Hmm, not exactly a great bargaining position. And remember, the luxurious 109 does nearly everything the 505 can, faster...smoother...with twin-engine reliability/safety (whatever that is worth to you) and not much more fuel burn. Better warranty on the 505, yes, but a lower loan rate on the 109. Decisions, decisions.... If I was a private owner who didn't fly much every year, I'd be sorely tempted to keep the 109.
But through perhaps naive exuberance, Nigel got in relatively early on the 505, and he's set up for delivery even before the ship has made much of an impact (sorry about the pun) into the U.S. market! Every pilot report we've read describes the 505 as performing as advertised but seems...well..."unfinished." We are promised that such finishing touches will come "later," certainly at greater cost and weight. We are warned that the low, low introductory price of "around $1 million" may soon be increasing substantially. It is undeniable that Bell rushed the ship to market to eat away at R-66 sales (and generate some much-needed cash at Bell to be sure).
If I were Nigel and had a perfectly good 109 sitting around collecting dust, I don't know what I'd do. We all like "new." But seriously, you can't really tell how old a 109 is unless you're an aficionado. It's like a 206 in that regard: "Oh, it's got the small square outside door handles...hmm...must be a '70s model." And so probably, like him I'd take delivery of the 505, keep it for a while while talking glowingly about it, and then, while it still has some warranty left, put it on the market to see if I could get my money out of it. And keep flying my 109.
Admit it, you would too.
Sell the 109?
A potential 109 buyer will know that he's got the 505 and needs to "dump" the twin (even if that is not absolutely true). It's superfluous. Hmm, not exactly a great bargaining position. And remember, the luxurious 109 does nearly everything the 505 can, faster...smoother...with twin-engine reliability/safety (whatever that is worth to you) and not much more fuel burn. Better warranty on the 505, yes, but a lower loan rate on the 109. Decisions, decisions.... If I was a private owner who didn't fly much every year, I'd be sorely tempted to keep the 109.
But through perhaps naive exuberance, Nigel got in relatively early on the 505, and he's set up for delivery even before the ship has made much of an impact (sorry about the pun) into the U.S. market! Every pilot report we've read describes the 505 as performing as advertised but seems...well..."unfinished." We are promised that such finishing touches will come "later," certainly at greater cost and weight. We are warned that the low, low introductory price of "around $1 million" may soon be increasing substantially. It is undeniable that Bell rushed the ship to market to eat away at R-66 sales (and generate some much-needed cash at Bell to be sure).
If I were Nigel and had a perfectly good 109 sitting around collecting dust, I don't know what I'd do. We all like "new." But seriously, you can't really tell how old a 109 is unless you're an aficionado. It's like a 206 in that regard: "Oh, it's got the small square outside door handles...hmm...must be a '70s model." And so probably, like him I'd take delivery of the 505, keep it for a while while talking glowingly about it, and then, while it still has some warranty left, put it on the market to see if I could get my money out of it. And keep flying my 109.
Admit it, you would too.
FH 1100 ..... well I would never have believed it !!! After locking horns so many times you then put in a message that is almost 100% spot on !!
The 109 is an amazing machine which , for a private owner , does almost everything almost as well as a new 109 but for a couple of Mil less !! My house guests this week thought it was my new helicopter when they saw it ( admittedly from 50m away !) . When I bought the 505 is was a gamble ... it was 4 years ago and I never expected to still have the 109 ...they were then selling for $5-800k and were popular . Now suddenly they are struggling to fetch $400k and arguably are now cheaper to run due to so many sold for parts . Now if I sell 200 hrs over the next year for £1,000 hr and a big item comes up ... I can sell it probably for £150k for parts ...( £200k less £50k maintenance etc = £150k .. then £150k sale = £300k)
Result . Then I have option to do a second year which IF it goes the same would produce £400k less 2 x £50k = £300k plus £150k sale ... £450k Result !
That is my position .... if I get a couple of trouble free years it almost doubles the value to me as at present I can’t even sell it for £275k !!!!!
As for the 505 ... I can always buy another one and will be sad to sell it but needs must . If I had a contract for it to go on I would consider keeping both so let me know everyone if you know of a good paying contract for the next 12 months !!!!
Lastly I may syndicate the 109 and sell 1/4 shares for £75k and stay in and manage it .....
ps .... you really need to fly the 505 to see how capable it is and yes the finish is “ basic “ and I will do an interior of sorts if I keep mine . And yes the door handles are a joke !!
The 109 is an amazing machine which , for a private owner , does almost everything almost as well as a new 109 but for a couple of Mil less !! My house guests this week thought it was my new helicopter when they saw it ( admittedly from 50m away !) . When I bought the 505 is was a gamble ... it was 4 years ago and I never expected to still have the 109 ...they were then selling for $5-800k and were popular . Now suddenly they are struggling to fetch $400k and arguably are now cheaper to run due to so many sold for parts . Now if I sell 200 hrs over the next year for £1,000 hr and a big item comes up ... I can sell it probably for £150k for parts ...( £200k less £50k maintenance etc = £150k .. then £150k sale = £300k)
Result . Then I have option to do a second year which IF it goes the same would produce £400k less 2 x £50k = £300k plus £150k sale ... £450k Result !
That is my position .... if I get a couple of trouble free years it almost doubles the value to me as at present I can’t even sell it for £275k !!!!!
As for the 505 ... I can always buy another one and will be sad to sell it but needs must . If I had a contract for it to go on I would consider keeping both so let me know everyone if you know of a good paying contract for the next 12 months !!!!
Lastly I may syndicate the 109 and sell 1/4 shares for £75k and stay in and manage it .....
ps .... you really need to fly the 505 to see how capable it is and yes the finish is “ basic “ and I will do an interior of sorts if I keep mine . And yes the door handles are a joke !!
I know what happened. Nigel finally realized (what we knew all along) that he 505 is not a good looking aircraft, especially side by side with the 109 ageless beauty.
its simple thinking but, the looks will always rule especially if money does not talk louder.
its simple thinking but, the looks will always rule especially if money does not talk louder.
Agile ... I can only assume you are not an owner / operator !!!! To us the looks are way way down the scale of importance !!! For me the economies rule every time . The 109 is more expensive to run ... but nowadays 9 out of ten charters or leases are for twins . That was not the case 10-15 years ago but steadily the single has been dropped by operators due to the lack of demand and now most aoc operators just use twins for charter.
I will post some photos when it arrives but I can honestly say it looks pretty cool in its dark blue and tan Seats ...!!
I will post some photos when it arrives but I can honestly say it looks pretty cool in its dark blue and tan Seats ...!!
Oh Nigel.... We all know that you're "invested" in the 505, personally as well as financially. And so we accept a little bias. But please, no amount of lipstick is going to make that pig look good. In fact, I'd bet (and you know me and bets) that there's nobody on the planet (besides you) who thinks the 505 is a "good-looking" (or even "pretty") helicopter - especially compared to a 109 or 206. Both Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles agree that the 505 is ugly (Stevie notes that it needs longer skids). The 505 is like the original OH-4A, of which marketing guy at the time Dwayne Jose said, "Lord Jesus, this thing is uglier than Golda Meir! It makes Stan's design look like Jayne Friggin' Mansfield - and you know how much I like those big bazooms! Errr...can we get Agusta or someone to design a better fuselage for this atrocity so Ed Ducayet doesn't kill it outright? I mean, my job is on the line here, dudes."
That's what Bell should've done with the 505.
That's what Bell should've done with the 505.
Oh Nigel.... We all know that you're "invested" in the 505, personally as well as financially. And so we accept a little bias. But please, no amount of lipstick is going to make that pig look good. In fact, I'd bet (and you know me and bets) that there's nobody on the planet (besides you) who thinks the 505 is a "good-looking" (or even "pretty") helicopter - especially compared to a 109 or 206. Both Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles agree that the 505 is ugly (Stevie notes that it needs longer skids). The 505 is like the original OH-4A, of which marketing guy at the time Dwayne Jose said, "Lord Jesus, this thing is uglier than Golda Meir! It makes Stan's design look like Jayne Friggin' Mansfield - and you know how much I like those big bazooms! Errr...can we get Agusta or someone to design a better fuselage for this atrocity so Ed Ducayet doesn't kill it outright? I mean, my job is on the line here, dudes."
That's what Bell should've done with the 505.
That's what Bell should've done with the 505.
Join Date: Apr 2014
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