UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
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Registration Details
Mark: G-MCGN
Current Reg. Date: 23/12/2014
Previous ID: NEW UK
Aircraft Details
Manufacturer: AGUSTAWESTLAND LTD
Type: AGUSTA AW189
Serial No.: 92001
Aircraft Class: HELICOPTER
EASA Category: CS-29: Large Rotorcraft
Engines: 2
MTOW: 8600kg
Total Hours:
Year Built: 2014
Owner Details
Ownership Status: Owned
Registered Owners: AGUSTAWESTLAND LTD, LYSANDER ROAD, YEOVIL, BA20 2YB
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As a disinterested lurker on this thread, it would appear that Crab is regularly hitting raw nerves that certain interested parties are keen to play down. How else do you explain the ad homs deployed vice any sort of effective counter-argument?
HAL9000 - wait and see what happens when I ask again why TUPE hasn't been applied to the military SAR people in what is, to all intents and purposes, a transfer of a service from one provider to another - exactly as catered for in TUPE legislation
The military are not exempt from TUPE despite what some believe - it is the service provision that is covered by the legislation and that has simply been moved from MoD to DfT - ie one government department to another - discuss.
Yes I know Bristow couldn't afford the ex-mil pensions.....
For the uninitiated, an ad hom stands for ad hominem (literally to the person) where you attack the person making the argument in the hope that by discrediting them you also discredit their logic - never happens on here.......
The military are not exempt from TUPE despite what some believe - it is the service provision that is covered by the legislation and that has simply been moved from MoD to DfT - ie one government department to another - discuss.
Yes I know Bristow couldn't afford the ex-mil pensions.....
For the uninitiated, an ad hom stands for ad hominem (literally to the person) where you attack the person making the argument in the hope that by discrediting them you also discredit their logic - never happens on here.......
By then the Military will decide that it might just need an Expeditionary SAR force but without any experience left it will be left to new blood to re-invent the wheel with new aircraft and new equipment.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
HAL9000 - wait and see what happens when I ask again why TUPE hasn't been applied to the military SAR people in what is, to all intents and purposes, a transfer of a service from one provider to another - exactly as catered for in TUPE legislation
The military are not exempt from TUPE despite what some believe - it is the service provision that is covered by the legislation and that has simply been moved from MoD to DfT - ie one government department to another - discuss.
Yes I know Bristow couldn't afford the ex-mil pensions.......
The military are not exempt from TUPE despite what some believe - it is the service provision that is covered by the legislation and that has simply been moved from MoD to DfT - ie one government department to another - discuss.
Yes I know Bristow couldn't afford the ex-mil pensions.......
I think it's more the free housing, private schooling, dentistry and everything else necessary to keep a vital fighting force full of steely eyed killers that might have been perceived as unnecessary to a strictly civi operation and therefore not tupeable. But that's just a guess and only my opinion. ;-)
Tightgit
Yes I know Bristow couldn't afford the ex-mil pensions.....
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The SAR RC
Thanks for that comprehensive explanation. However, that appears to be a very restrictive training environment that you work under. Not being able to live winch unless you have a 15-20 knot wind in the hover must lead to an awful lot of missed training opportunities when the weather is good. As for a dearth of safety equipment, that's just sinful.
All those restrictions you describe would be less of a problem if everyone that was being recruited had years and years of SAR experience behind them. But that's not the case is it? SAR novices are being recruited and of course as time progresses, Bristow will have no option but to recruit more SAR novices as military SAR becomes a distant memory. With that being an inconvenient truth, Coastguard SAR really needs to look at removing some of those barriers you describe because a few years down the line, there is going to be a notably high proportion of UK SAR aircrew who have never practised some of the most basic SAR training exercises. CAA take note.
Thanks for that comprehensive explanation. However, that appears to be a very restrictive training environment that you work under. Not being able to live winch unless you have a 15-20 knot wind in the hover must lead to an awful lot of missed training opportunities when the weather is good. As for a dearth of safety equipment, that's just sinful.
All those restrictions you describe would be less of a problem if everyone that was being recruited had years and years of SAR experience behind them. But that's not the case is it? SAR novices are being recruited and of course as time progresses, Bristow will have no option but to recruit more SAR novices as military SAR becomes a distant memory. With that being an inconvenient truth, Coastguard SAR really needs to look at removing some of those barriers you describe because a few years down the line, there is going to be a notably high proportion of UK SAR aircrew who have never practised some of the most basic SAR training exercises. CAA take note.
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The real world...????
I am shocked and stunned VSF, are you really suggesting that the authorities take a reality pill ??? live in the real world ??? get with the risk-management business ???
Everything to do with SAR is about managing risk but to imagine that you can somehow make it 'risk-free' is to live in a world that is far removed from the one I have spent my life in.
The risk/benefit ratio of the training I am sure can be managed closer to the margin than the 20 kts of wind you suggest. SAR people are resourceful people so just watch this space. I am sure they will find a way just as soon as they acquire the skills to make their case effectively.
We found a way round a similar dilemma in the offshore world by using 'probability' theory. Will this work for SAR? Sorry - I don't have the required number of brain cells left to work that out. Maybe JimL will comment?
G.
Everything to do with SAR is about managing risk but to imagine that you can somehow make it 'risk-free' is to live in a world that is far removed from the one I have spent my life in.
The risk/benefit ratio of the training I am sure can be managed closer to the margin than the 20 kts of wind you suggest. SAR people are resourceful people so just watch this space. I am sure they will find a way just as soon as they acquire the skills to make their case effectively.
We found a way round a similar dilemma in the offshore world by using 'probability' theory. Will this work for SAR? Sorry - I don't have the required number of brain cells left to work that out. Maybe JimL will comment?
G.
Good point handysnaks - it just reinforces the question about not being TUPE'd across
As for training - surely the new super-shiny helicopters can manage a safe single- engine hover in light winds by limiting the fuel load towards minimums?
Not doing wets training in light winds means not training for the effect of the mega downwash, means getting surprised when Johnny on his lilo/surfboard takes off when you are trying to rescue him, means ever higher hover heights to mitigate the downwash just in case, means ever more reliance on the Hover Trim for rescues, means ever more reliance on the underpaid and non-licensed rearcrew!
The risk of winching 'committed' has been managed quite successfully for many years in the mil and, to my knowledge, we haven't had a single incident cause by engine failure in that condition (ignoring OTG trips when drum winching).
As for training - surely the new super-shiny helicopters can manage a safe single- engine hover in light winds by limiting the fuel load towards minimums?
Not doing wets training in light winds means not training for the effect of the mega downwash, means getting surprised when Johnny on his lilo/surfboard takes off when you are trying to rescue him, means ever higher hover heights to mitigate the downwash just in case, means ever more reliance on the Hover Trim for rescues, means ever more reliance on the underpaid and non-licensed rearcrew!
The risk of winching 'committed' has been managed quite successfully for many years in the mil and, to my knowledge, we haven't had a single incident cause by engine failure in that condition (ignoring OTG trips when drum winching).
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Geoffersincornwall
I'm shocked and stunned that you're shocked and stunned. What are you talking about? Where did I say SAR training should be risk free? What a strange post.
Multiply by a factor of about three for not being required to train for these eventualities at night. Experienced guys might be able to get away with it, not the novices and a team is only as strong as its weakest link.
I'm shocked and stunned that you're shocked and stunned. What are you talking about? Where did I say SAR training should be risk free? What a strange post.
Not doing wets training in light winds means not training for the effect of the mega downwash, means getting surprised when Johnny on his lilo/surfboard takes off when you are trying to rescue him, means ever higher hover heights to mitigate the downwash just in case, means ever more reliance on the Hover Trim for rescues, means ever more reliance on the underpaid and non-licensed rearcrew!
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 29th Dec 2014 at 09:33.
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VSF - "All those restrictions you describe would be less of a problem if everyone that was being recruited had years and years of SAR experience behind them. But that's not the case is it? SAR novices are being recruited and of course as time progresses, Bristow will have no option but to recruit more SAR novices as military SAR becomes a distant memory"
I'm sure things have changed since my time as SAR pilot but I don't remember coming out of a box labelled "Very experienced SAR Pilot". We required training too.
I'm sure things have changed since my time as SAR pilot but I don't remember coming out of a box labelled "Very experienced SAR Pilot". We required training too.
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Crab, I'm intrigued on two counts:
Firstly, regarding the non-applicability of TUPE: surely, as long as their current employer was prepared to release them - possible sticking point there - mil SAR personnel that the contractor thinks would be an asset would be snapped up in the recruitment process anyway?
Secondly, why on earth would higher hover heights necessitate "ever more reliance on the Hover Trim" in, for example, an S-92? Just curious.
Firstly, regarding the non-applicability of TUPE: surely, as long as their current employer was prepared to release them - possible sticking point there - mil SAR personnel that the contractor thinks would be an asset would be snapped up in the recruitment process anyway?
Secondly, why on earth would higher hover heights necessitate "ever more reliance on the Hover Trim" in, for example, an S-92? Just curious.
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Sandy Toad
Yes, you did require training. More than 50 hours per month per unit (ie ten hours per month per person). And you needed training in a variety of different disciplines by day and by night.
If it's modern risk matrices that Geoffersincornwall wants to bring into it to try and quantify the unquantifiable, multiply (ambulance paramedic with next to no time on helicopters) by (civilian pilot who has never worn a set of NVG before but will be required to do so operationally on April 1st) and see what you get. Alternatively, multiply (a pilot that's never hovered over the water at night without a close external reference) by (the remainder of the crew not having the SAR experience to know which jobs merit the extra risk and which don't). Finally, increase by a factor of 1.5 if you only have 10 hours of training available to you per month and that training is restricted by rules like not being able to live winch with the torques above a certain figure.
Yes, you did require training. More than 50 hours per month per unit (ie ten hours per month per person). And you needed training in a variety of different disciplines by day and by night.
If it's modern risk matrices that Geoffersincornwall wants to bring into it to try and quantify the unquantifiable, multiply (ambulance paramedic with next to no time on helicopters) by (civilian pilot who has never worn a set of NVG before but will be required to do so operationally on April 1st) and see what you get. Alternatively, multiply (a pilot that's never hovered over the water at night without a close external reference) by (the remainder of the crew not having the SAR experience to know which jobs merit the extra risk and which don't). Finally, increase by a factor of 1.5 if you only have 10 hours of training available to you per month and that training is restricted by rules like not being able to live winch with the torques above a certain figure.
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VSF
I'm sorry that my (extreme ?) sarcasm was lost on you. If I have a message at all it is that we breed resourceful SAR crews that have a good track record of getting the job done.
The naysayers can postulate the catastrophes they believe lay ahead but for me I'll sleep well knowing that we got it right in the past and I don't see the need to get too upset about the way the future is shaping up. Some things may be better and some worse but only the nitpickers and going to fuss themselves into lather about it.
G.
The naysayers can postulate the catastrophes they believe lay ahead but for me I'll sleep well knowing that we got it right in the past and I don't see the need to get too upset about the way the future is shaping up. Some things may be better and some worse but only the nitpickers and going to fuss themselves into lather about it.
G.
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I think it's more the free housing, private schooling, dentistry and everything else necessary to keep a vital fighting force full of steely eyed killers that might have been perceived as unnecessary to a strictly civi operation and therefore not tupeable. But that's just a guess and only my opinion. ;-)
[quote=ShyTorque;8801003]
Without getting into semantics you summed up my point nicely. "Military package" is exactly what it is and therefore the point I was trying to make! You cannot tupe someone on a military package into a civi job! The cost would be prohibitive. And as none of the current military are contracted to do SAR but rather to be warfighters who do SAR until their next posting you cannot tupe them over. I have no idea if that's the real reason nor am I making a judgement on the rights or wrongs just my humble thoughts on the subject of Tupe.
Free housing and private schooling? Since when were those part of the military package??
Without getting into semantics you summed up my point nicely. "Military package" is exactly what it is and therefore the point I was trying to make! You cannot tupe someone on a military package into a civi job! The cost would be prohibitive. And as none of the current military are contracted to do SAR but rather to be warfighters who do SAR until their next posting you cannot tupe them over. I have no idea if that's the real reason nor am I making a judgement on the rights or wrongs just my humble thoughts on the subject of Tupe.
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only the nitpickers and going to fuss themselves into lather about it
Who'd be a man overboard/fast-jet ejectee/missing diver/fisherman washed off a pier/kid swept out to sea at sunset?
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Snakepit,
I might be missing your point because of some obtuse reverse logic of yours but you certainly are missing mine. I replied to your post because your "facts" are wrong. There is no point trying to discuss whether a benefit should be transferred under TUPE when that benefit never actually existed in the first place.
The military don't get the benefit of "free" housing. They pay rent like everyone else. A rent is paid to some formula based on the average paid for civilian owned property of similar standing. This is so personnel neither gain nor lose out because of the vagaries of the military posting system and different rents charged in different areas.
Dental treatment was, and probably still is, given on base because poor dental care has always been regarded as a potential flight safety issue for aircrew and getting registered at a civilian practice can be difficult for people who move to different locations at very short notice. Getting emergency treatment at short notice can be impossible.
There was a boarding school allowance in my time in the service, and no doubt still is, but as far as I'm aware, it certainly didn't ever cover the full cost of the fees. The reason for this allowance was to allow the children of serving military personnel to have some stability in their education, while their parents were moved to different parts of the world at ever decreasing intervals. I never actually claimed the latter; the only time I did was as a civilian, in later life. In retrospect I perhaps should have, because my son had been in eight different schools by the time he got as far as taking his GCSE exams at the age of fourteen. For civilian employees living with better family stability, it's not such an issue.
I might be missing your point because of some obtuse reverse logic of yours but you certainly are missing mine. I replied to your post because your "facts" are wrong. There is no point trying to discuss whether a benefit should be transferred under TUPE when that benefit never actually existed in the first place.
The military don't get the benefit of "free" housing. They pay rent like everyone else. A rent is paid to some formula based on the average paid for civilian owned property of similar standing. This is so personnel neither gain nor lose out because of the vagaries of the military posting system and different rents charged in different areas.
Dental treatment was, and probably still is, given on base because poor dental care has always been regarded as a potential flight safety issue for aircrew and getting registered at a civilian practice can be difficult for people who move to different locations at very short notice. Getting emergency treatment at short notice can be impossible.
There was a boarding school allowance in my time in the service, and no doubt still is, but as far as I'm aware, it certainly didn't ever cover the full cost of the fees. The reason for this allowance was to allow the children of serving military personnel to have some stability in their education, while their parents were moved to different parts of the world at ever decreasing intervals. I never actually claimed the latter; the only time I did was as a civilian, in later life. In retrospect I perhaps should have, because my son had been in eight different schools by the time he got as far as taking his GCSE exams at the age of fourteen. For civilian employees living with better family stability, it's not such an issue.