Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 15th Dec 2014, 10:26
  #1341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
From Shetlander;

However the RAF isn't perfect and the ARCC have made some massive cock ups in their time, not to mention the daily cock ups of forgetting to organise a HLS or call the ambulance to meet the helo.
the fact of the matter is there are daily failings with RAF ARCC so handing it over to civvies to make daily failings isn't much of a change.
Pretty harsh. The boys and girls at the ARCC are a professional bunch that, on the whole, do a very good job with limited resources and sometimes under significant pressure. Forgetting to organise a HLS or booking an ambulance is certainly not a daily occurrence. Ambulances are not always available to meet crews due to operational priorities elsewhere or simply, due to the nature of SAR, not enough notice being given. Nobody is perfect and of course mistakes are occasionally made (like anywhere) but to accuse the ARCC of making "massive cock ups" and "daily failings" is doing them a disservice. This is a unit that is proud of the support it gives to UK SAR and has just had it's notice of termination. Show a bit of respect.
llamaman is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 10:48
  #1342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,289
Received 608 Likes on 266 Posts
Llamaman - Completely agreed - it is often the ambulance authority who can't provide the ambulance due to operational overstretch or undermanning.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 11:14
  #1343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pretty harsh. The boys and girls at the ARCC are a professional bunch that, on the whole, do a very good job with limited resources and sometimes under significant pressure. Forgetting to organise a HLS or booking an ambulance is certainly not a daily occurrence. Ambulances are not always available to meet crews due to operational priorities elsewhere or simply, due to the nature of SAR, not enough notice being given. Nobody is perfect and of course mistakes are occasionally made (like anywhere) but to accuse the ARCC of making "massive cock ups" and "daily failings" is doing them a disservice. This is a unit that is proud of the support it gives to UK SAR and has just had it's notice of termination. Show a bit of respect.
What I was trying to highlight with my post is that although the RAF and other people may be annoyed that it is moving to the MCA, however it is wrong to start casting aspersions on if/how and how well or not the MCA will conduct ARCC ops.
There have been a few comments about training, do people know that ARCC management and controllers will be going to the MCA to deliver a bespoke ARCC course? DO they know that during the transition arrangement current ARCC controllers will be running ops from the NMOC at Fareham?

Furthermore, the ambulance situation may have been a bad example but all this talk of the MCA crashing and burning when it comes to ARCC ops, in turn what I was looking to highlight is that there is current failings and as we have agreed – everyone makes mistakes, yet it is ok for is to gloss over it when its RAF ARCC and accept that mistakes have been and are being made however when it comes to MCA ARCC we are going all guns blazing and shooting them down before they have started!?

I accept the unit is proud to have served UKSAR however shouldn’t we sit back and wait to see how the MCA fair, before writing them off before they begin?
shetlander is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 12:34
  #1344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Univers
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No, but I have heard a rumour that the 189's performance, especially with the higher AUM brought about by the added fuel tank, might not be what people were expecting - could make it interesting in the mountains in Summer


As far as I know there is neither mountains nor summer in UK
Margins is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 12:41
  #1345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Shetlander, although in your neck of the woods it might be hard to find somebody that didn't know about boats or helicopters or both, let's be realistic and acknowledge that it is the other way round in most UK districts.

Albert's 'off the street' comment is a valid one in my experience of people I have known who have worked for the Coastguard in the lower echelons. They don't seem to pay well either.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 12:48
  #1346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
I expected great things of the AW189 but the long-range fuel tank in particular looks like a c0ck-up from a weight point of view.

I also suspect that the drag from the fuel tank, searchlight, FLIR and double hoist had not been properly considered at an early stage.

Disappointing.

At least it has storage space, so I am hoping that the seats won't be full of rucksacks.


Originally Posted by Margins
[I][COLOR=green] ... ... As far as I know there is neither mountains nor summer in UK
I think your Univers must be too near the Equator.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 13:18
  #1347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Shetlander, although in your neck of the woods it might be hard to find somebody that didn't know about boats or helicopters or both, let's be realistic and acknowledge that it is the other way round in most UK districts.

Albert's 'off the street' comment is a valid one in my experience of people I have known who have worked for the Coastguard in the lower echelons. They don't seem to pay well either.
Yes I agree, but that does not mean that competent individuals cant learn and receive training.

Is anyone a born ARCC controller? Winch Op? Or Pilot? No! They receive training from those that are skilled in the subject and learn the trade. They make mistakes and learn from them.

The same can be said for Ambulance and Fire Control.
shetlander is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 14:05
  #1348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just wait 'til the CG/ARCC ops calls are coming to you from 'Keith' or 'Ruth' in Delhi! Savings have to be made after all

And Shetlander, have you ever had to go through ambulance control recently, where a 'trained person' reads from a script? I have had advice that would have killed the casualty that I was resuscitating whilst awaiting the ambulance if I had carried out the scripted actions.
Al-bert is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 14:17
  #1349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is anyone a born ARCC controller? Winch Op? Or Pilot? No! They receive training
Except some will need more training than others.

Come on Shetlander, use your loaf. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Aircrew that have been selected at OASC and have survived a flying training system where the chop is only ever a couple of sorties away are generally going to catch on quicker than your average bloke off the street, are likely to have more foresight and be more capable of lateral thinking.

I expected great things of the AW189 but the long-range fuel tank in particular looks like a c0ck-up from a weight point of view.
And ground clearance, don't forget. You're catching on though.

At least it has storage space
Oh, maybe not!

The concern around penalty payments for not meeting the contract specification is that as well as spending all the extra money to bring in 139s and extra 92s - and the training and re-training costs that will be required of aircrew and groundcrew - any penalty payments are going to bleed the infamously low Ł1.6 billion budget dry. This already has the look of something that is being done on a shoestring (dirt cheap NVG we were told a few pages ago) so where else are cost savings going to be made to balance the books? Less training? Less qualified aircrew? Oh, that's right. Shetlander says no-one is born aircrew. Very true, but some people are born more aircrew than others. (Sorry George Orwell.)

Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 15th Dec 2014 at 15:21.
Vie sans frontieres is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 17:15
  #1350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok guys it was only an opinion. I still think you should just give it time. If it turns to cr@p then your justified in saying so, but at such an early stage you've already made your minds up before giving it a go. Anyway ... I will just stick to my civvy SAR in my S92.

Before I go... In my opinion, the local Coasties made a far better job of things than the ARCC have to date.

Off for some dinner before I get shot down by the RAF again.
shetlander is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 18:13
  #1351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Once you've had your dinner Shetlander could you explain why you can only seat 9 people in a big aircraft like the S92. And while you're there, please update the forum on how the S92 crews' NVG training is going and roughly how many NVG hours on type you expect those crews taking over on April 1st to have on that date. Thank you.
Vie sans frontieres is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 19:11
  #1352 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by Vie sans frontieres
... ... spending all the extra money to bring in 139s and extra 92s ... ...
Four 139s, for "vicinity of Wattisham" and for St Athan, provided by AW.

Two S-92s, for Inverness, brought forward in the programme that would eventually go to ... Culdrose (or ... what's the current spec at Sumburgh).

That gets us into Q4 of 2015. 2016? Oops.



Originally Posted by Vie sans frontieres
... ... dirt cheap NVG we were told a few pages ago ...
Maybe it's true. Or maybe the numbers I heard mean Bristow are paying what one would expect for the best kit that those damned colonials will sell to security vetted Brits. Those numbers are significantly more than the stuff on the website price lists and way way more than a Lidl special offer.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/511...ml#post8718998
jimf671 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 19:50
  #1353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Shetlander wrote;

Before I go... In my opinion, the local Coasties made a far better job of things than the ARCC have to date.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion but it would be interesting to see how you substantiate that particular one. I'm sure the service at a local level from the local coastguard was fine but having Co-ordinaton at a national level makes eminent sense otherwise you are always faced with the attitude of "it's 'our' asset". This is fine when it's a simple mission in your own 'patch' (as most of Shetland's are) but having a national Co-ordinator as arbitrator when things get a bit more complex is a must. Thankfully the MCA intend to adopt that model and not go back to the days of local CGOCs 'owning' the asset, something of which you are clearly a proponent.

Maybe I shouldn't have bitten but find it hard not to in this case!
llamaman is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 20:18
  #1354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 248
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
When will the 'new' dates for declaring 189 'fit for purpose' be announced?
Wilkos are running out of bodge tape ;-)
JulieAndrews is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2014, 22:28
  #1355 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,289
Received 608 Likes on 266 Posts
It's almost as if Bristow weren't expecting to win lot 2 - they seem to have been behind the drag curve all the way.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 05:41
  #1356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It's almost as if Bristow weren't expecting to win lot 2 - they seem to have been behind the drag curve all the way.
Yes I see your logic there capt fantastic.
It would have been much better if bond had won lot 2 then they would be bringing in the much superior........AW189!
Or CHC who bid with the world beating and 20% betterer.........AW189!
Maybe, just maybe the issue here is one of certification problems. Who's fault is that? AW, EASA, CAA, UK Gov? Or maybe all or none of the above and it's just process? Bit harsh to lay it at Bristow door though?! But where would the fun in crab's world be you couldn't stretch the truth a little ;-).

Last edited by snakepit; 16th Dec 2014 at 06:21.
snakepit is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 06:33
  #1357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,452
Received 20 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by snakepit
... Bit harsh to lay it at Bristow door though?! ...

If they had been on top of their game then surely they would have been ready to move the process forward with ink on contract on 26th March 2013 and not wait four months.

Bristow Group Sign Contract for 11 AW189 Helicopters for UK Search & Rescue | AgustaWestland
jimf671 is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 07:00
  #1358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

I admit I should have put "all" in that sentence Jimf671
snakepit is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 08:41
  #1359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,289
Received 608 Likes on 266 Posts
Or maybe you just know a little bit less than you think you do snakepit
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:26
  #1360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question

Once you've had your dinner Shetlander could you explain why you can only seat 9 people in a big aircraft like the S92. And while you're there, please update the forum on how the S92 crews' NVG training is going and roughly how many NVG hours on type you expect those crews taking over on April 1st to have on that date.
Answer - ................................................

That'll be the sound of silence then. (Apologies to Paul Simon this time.)
Vie sans frontieres is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.