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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 11th Apr 2013, 14:42
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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It's against the law to mention age for recruitment/retirement. The only limit is Captains can't be captains after 60. A CAA/ICAO limit I believe.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 14:49
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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The only limit is Captains can't be captains after 60. A CAA/ICAO limit I believe.
Is that some SAR specific rule I have never heard of, or are you confusing it with the fact that a Captain aged 60 or over cannot fly with a co-pilot who is also 60 or over - i.e. ONE of the crew (Captain OR co-pilot) must be under 60

(I spent many hours flying as co-pilot on the North sea with Captains who were between 60 and 64 years 364 days old........)

Last edited by farsouth; 11th Apr 2013 at 14:52.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 14:54
  #423 (permalink)  
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Along with the presentation posted yesterday please clink on the link below. This is a webcast from Bill Chiles CEO Bristow along with commercial and ops directors. This webcast deal entirely with the UK SAR contact win, its over 3 hrs long with some safety stuff at the beginning. Again it may fill in some blanks and put pay to some rumour and BS.

Bristow Investors ? Event Details ? BRS ? bristowgroup.com
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 15:59
  #424 (permalink)  

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The rules about age differ depending on whether or not the role is classed as Public Transport. A full career military retiree will be aged aged 55, or possibly slightly older. Hence my question.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 16:39
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ST the rule for public transport is that you can be captain up to 65 for multi-pilot ops, provided the other pilot is less than 60. For single pilot ops its 60 but that is not relevant for SAR. I can't see the company being able to put any other upper age limit on it, that would be discrimination on the grounds of age - illegal. However I suppose if you were 64 they would probably try to wriggle out of giving you a type rating, which is not unreasonable law notwithstanding.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 16:51
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An observation from over the fence chaps if you don't mind. Why does this Managed Transition make any sence for Bristow? A mate who recently attended and interview for a SAR captains role said the place was full of ex mil American and Canadian SAR pilots. Why would a commercial company want to give a speaking chit to the RAF over who they recruit. This is a commercial world chaps and they will make there own decisions based on meeting contracted obligations with minimum costs ( the contract states the experience minimums I believe - 500hrs on type being the main one for captains) don't believe everything manning tell you - you make your own destiny!

I would put £10 on the fact Bristow know nothing about this "managed path" Bristow need full manning and trained (500hrs on type) aircrew ready for the midnight handover. When the ship is full it will set sail without you.

Last edited by High_Expect; 11th Apr 2013 at 16:53.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 16:55
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+ would it not be illegal for the RAF to attempt to block an application from a civilian to a civilian company. They can only hold you to more than 12mths under exceptional circumstances.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 17:12
  #428 (permalink)  
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HE,

it is 'Managed Transition', not 'Managed Path'.

If Bristow know nothing about it why pray tell is there a specific MT application process on the BristowSAR recruitment page?

Conspiracy theorists please desist and let those that wish to apply to do so and succeed or fail by their own efforts, best man/woman for the job and all that.

Good luck everyone.
 
Old 11th Apr 2013, 17:16
  #429 (permalink)  

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ST the rule for public transport is that you can be captain up to 65 for multi-pilot ops, provided the other pilot is less than 60. For single pilot ops its 60 but that is not relevant for SAR. I can't see the company being able to put any other upper age limit on it, that would be discrimination on the grounds of age - illegal. However I suppose if you were 64 they would probably try to wriggle out of giving you a type rating, which is not unreasonable law notwithstanding.
Thanks, I'm aware of the rules for PT (I've been working under them for quite a long time) but that wasn't actually the intended meaning of my question.

It was rather about practical age limit if that's more clear, for application.
Is it to be classed as PT? Survivors don't often need to buy a ticket to get a ride in a SAR helicopter.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 17:27
  #430 (permalink)  
 
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Snaggle I did say I was an outsider. But realistically how do you expect it to work. Don't the mil hold the cover up until a certain date and then Bristow take over the next day? That would mean the Mil need full manning as do Bristow. That doesn't leave a lot of transition to manage in my unqualified opinion. I would hate to see guys having blind faith in a "system" that may be subtly flawed?

Do you work for manning?
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 18:19
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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The mil guys (and we are talking RN and RAF current SAR) might be aged early 30s upwards. The era of guys of this age poss finish their contracts with mil at aged 38, so if early 30s and they have the hours then prob looking at accepting a lesser pension from mil, or if timing is in their favour, a guy aged 36 now will be out within 2 years and hopefully retain their pension. These are the youngest realistically, then you might get guys who are on a PAS contract and they will be any age from 38 up to 55 (or greater if on continuance). Hope this makes sense?

HS
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 20:08
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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The links that meantobe has posted show Bristow are serious about the managed transition whatever the naysayers may believe.

However, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that any people that are being taken on now with the promise of SAR seats are a contingency plan B in the event that not many ex-mil apply or make the grade.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 20:20
  #433 (permalink)  

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HS, I have no problem understanding your post; I'm ex mil rotary myself.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 20:30
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Of course Bristow are serious about managed transition, they have to be but only to make it work from their perspective. I suspect they're not overly fussed about the potential manning problems that the military will have to deal with as crews start to jump the fence. As previously mentioned by more than one poster just how will it work? The military SAR flights have to be suitably manned to maintain UK SAR cover up to handover and Bristow have to be suitably manned to pick up the reins from day one. Something has to give. Despite the handover of flights being staggered I fail to see how military crews of any significant number will be able to depart early enough to make the whole thing work. It's not 'neersaying', just some relevant questioning that merits debate within this forum.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 20:52
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ST, ok fair enough. I was just quashing a potential for anybody to assume that the mil guys applying for SAR UK would be mainly 55 years +.

HS
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 21:15
  #436 (permalink)  
 
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High Expect - presumably your mate was attending for an interview in USA for a job in USA? Ex Us and Canadian mil pilots would need EASA qualifications for UK SAR, something they are highly unlikely to have. Bit of scaremongering?

Last edited by HeliComparator; 11th Apr 2013 at 21:15.
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Old 11th Apr 2013, 23:02
  #437 (permalink)  
 
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Conditions

Ok, enough about who will fly, mill transition etc...

Can anyone who has some insight tell me about the conditions planned for the SAR-crews (civ or mil, whoever, it's Bristow now...!)?

-What roster will it most likely be? Is it possible to live some distace away from the base, or do you need to move close by?

-What salary can one expect? I assume it will be higher than offshore CAT? Right? What is a typical salary for a co-pilot in Aberdeen?

-Is it difficult to get a UK work-permit? I personally have standard JAR-FCL (soon EASA I guess) certificates, and live in Norway.

Here in Norway we have many pilots from UK, Germany, Denmark, Holland etc. In my eyes it seems pretty stright forward to work abroad as long as you have the right certificates?

But before someone starts a long thread about foreign pilots, I'm most interested in information about the roster.....
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Old 12th Apr 2013, 08:24
  #438 (permalink)  
 
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I would be surprised if non EU pilots would be eligible for a work permit for SAR due to the large number of EU qualified pilots available to fill the role. Can you imagine the Sun headline if non EU pilots are recruited and ex mil pilots are not!

Sacked and Redundant
Our SAR boys are ignored by American firm
in favour of cheap foreign labour
by Dick Chopper our aviation consultant

I am sure that Bristow wouldn't want to see those headlines in the Sun!!

HF
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Old 12th Apr 2013, 09:22
  #439 (permalink)  
 
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The contractor could end up carrying the can publicly for all sorts of things on this contract. It's no wonder that they are carefully managing the public and media relations including using outside specialists.

If there is change that people don't fully understand, and very few understand this one, they will tend to have a go at the most obvious target. In spite of the BIG letters on the side of the aircraft, the contractor is more likely to collect the flak than the customer.

=================

From an MR point of view, some of those foreign or non-EU pilots are welcome in the mix. There is clearly a good variety of pilots across the entire Bristow fleet including some from Norway, or the Alps, or Alaska, or Nepal, for whom mountains are nothing new. Diversity fuels evolution.

It seems to me that it will end up with a good mix. I expect part of this mix will be a large number of Managed Transition pilots and probably even more MT rear-crew. Inevitably, there will be one or two guys who are currently working in SAR in neighbouring territories, who might be Brits or might not. Then a wedge of NS bus-drivers who've always wanted to do this or wanted to return to it. Maybe a few guys and girls from further afield.

If most of them are people who really love doing the job and a few are shekel-counters who are just passing through, and if some have monster log-books and some are relative newbies, then we are in no better or worse place than we are at present.

Last edited by jimf671; 12th Apr 2013 at 09:23.
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Old 12th Apr 2013, 09:29
  #440 (permalink)  
 
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How can CAA approved TREs check the performance of the aircrewmen?
Another nil return to a simple question that is obviously too difficult for some. It looks like they can't, which means that 50% of the aircrew will be operating with no form of external verification of their ability (except for their medical skills).

For the pilots, Lala Steady said

the CAA inspectors who are supposed to ensure the AOC is being complied with, don't actually fly with the SAR crews - they only fly with the TREs! So as long as you have competent TREs, the operational crews can be crap and the CAA won't know!
That doesn't seem too wide of the mark either judging by what others have said about the sorties that the CAA may fly on.

So is that not self-policing?

Profit making services to the public that are ultimately paid for by the Treasury must not be in a position to sign themselves up as competent without all aspects of their operation being rigorously checked by an independent external evaluation team.

Last edited by onesquaremetre; 12th Apr 2013 at 09:40.
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