UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
As Jim says, people will keep getting rescued by the service. Nothing changes from military to civi SAR. Troops keep doing the job and continue to be baffled by either 2/3 star officers or SMT decisions.
How long has it taken to actually meet the terms of the contract? And you can't blame the OEM for all of that delay.
The proof of this contract's success will be in its renewal which, looking at the rearcrew manning problems looming, could prove problematic for any future contractor - perhaps if the pay were to be set at a realistic level.................
That would be a like suggesting the SARF was actually a failure because of (for example) the total mismanagement of procurement in MOD.
There are a few things that some understood way back at contract award in March 2013 that affect how and where we've arrived now and where we're going with this in the future.
1. Corporate hustlers thousand of miles away are always out for themselves.
2. The AW189 SAR did not exist as an operational aircraft.
3. The contract technical spec and national SAR regulatory framework that were coming into play were about to surprise a lot of people because nobody had written all of that stuff down before.
4. SAR Technical Crew was not a licensed aviation trade and the CAA and the contractors were sleep-walking into a long-term problem in relation to how "the market" would respond to that.
Numbers 2 & 3 are fixed.
1. Corporate hustlers thousand of miles away are always out for themselves.
2. The AW189 SAR did not exist as an operational aircraft.
3. The contract technical spec and national SAR regulatory framework that were coming into play were about to surprise a lot of people because nobody had written all of that stuff down before.
4. SAR Technical Crew was not a licensed aviation trade and the CAA and the contractors were sleep-walking into a long-term problem in relation to how "the market" would respond to that.
Numbers 2 & 3 are fixed.
Jim - someone sold those corporate hustlers the idea of bidding for UKSAR promising them a pot of gold - not defending hustlers but someone had to push the idea through the boardroom.
BRS bid using the 189 knowing point 2.
Point 3 had been mostly covered in the doomed Soteria bid.
Point 4 is very valid but someone who doesn't value SARTC or rearcrew in general biased the salaries too heavily towards the pilots and forgot who actually takes all the risks in SAR.
BRS bid using the 189 knowing point 2.
Point 3 had been mostly covered in the doomed Soteria bid.
Point 4 is very valid but someone who doesn't value SARTC or rearcrew in general biased the salaries too heavily towards the pilots and forgot who actually takes all the risks in SAR.
Re Point 4, Service pay is due for 2019 review this month but 2018-19 PA Scales show the following.
PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level?
)
PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)
PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level?
)PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)
I was level 33 when I left
Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.
Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.
Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.
Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I was level 33 when I left
Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.
Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.
Even the lowest PAS spine position is higher than the BRS pay - they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.
Few of the pilots were on the top levels of PAS but went on to (ISTR) £95K fr Captains and £80K for co-pilots - allegedly to do with NS pay levels.
Utter rubbish. Most of the pilots started on way less than that and lots had to pay a 30k salary sacrifice over 3 years. I was earning a lot less than I would have on PAS.
Did you go straight in as a SAR captain with 5 years plus UKSAR experience?
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Then you are not very representative of those who I worked with in the Mil - yes, they had to fund their own IRs but those figures were what was offered at the interview stage.
Did you go straight in as a SAR captain with 5 years plus UKSAR experience?
Did you go straight in as a SAR captain with 5 years plus UKSAR experience?
Well, your version seems different from others - i don't know what your Ts and Cs were and are - what are you earning there now?
Did CB change the salary offer after the second stage of interview? I didn't get there thankfully but the £95K for SAR Captains was what was touted - if they didn't deliver that, I am even happier not to have got a job with them.
Did CB change the salary offer after the second stage of interview? I didn't get there thankfully but the £95K for SAR Captains was what was touted - if they didn't deliver that, I am even happier not to have got a job with them.
Re Point 4, Service pay is due for 2019 review this month but 2018-19 PA Scales show the following.
PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level?)
PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)
PAS-35 = £83,581.56 (top of scale, Crab's level?
)PAS-30 = £77,841.12 (max for FltLt WOp/Lt Observer?)
PAS-20 = £66,010.92 (max for WO/MACR)
PAS-12 = £55,816.92 (max for Sgt)
PAS-1 = £46,222.20 (bottom of scale)
PAS is not nor ever was the norm for TC equivalence to pay in the military, nor (referring to your earlier posts on the same topic) is RN Observer pay. If you want to join the Russians, Chinese and Trump in the ‘fake news’ market you’re going the right way about it. 👍🤣
Have a look at the 2018-19 pay levels for the RAF and you'll see that you don't have to be on PAS to be earning more than SAR TC - a top range Sgt is on £42K without adding in flying pay, a top range F Sgt is a shade under £50K.
RN Observers as a Lt could be on £40 - £48K depending on time in rank , again without flying pay.
Jim said those PAS rates were maximums but most of the rearcrew I worked with were on over £50K.
No fake news
RN Observers as a Lt could be on £40 - £48K depending on time in rank , again without flying pay.
Jim said those PAS rates were maximums but most of the rearcrew I worked with were on over £50K.
No fake news
they took on a wealth of experienced Sgts, WO/MACRs and Observers and insulted them with the pay.
No, they went for the job they loved and were spectacularly well trained for - despite the poor salary offered. The alternative for many was to return to FW or SH as there was no SAR employment left in the RAF/RN apart from 84 Sqn and SARTU (202)..
It is the best helicopter job going but just because pilots are licenced and TC are not, doesn't mean they should be so badly disadvantaged, especially as they are the ones doing the hard, dangerous and dirty work on SAR.
It is the best helicopter job going but just because pilots are licenced and TC are not, doesn't mean they should be so badly disadvantaged, especially as they are the ones doing the hard, dangerous and dirty work on SAR.
I agree wholeheartedly crab that the skill level of some of the ex mil tc is great but this is the commercial world. Companies will pay what they can get away with and they have. We will see what happens in the future in order to keep that level of skill set but at present they offered £x and got the required y.
Does this compare to an ex mil highly experienced pilot with many years under his belt going to work for NPAS for £50k?
Does this compare to an ex mil highly experienced pilot with many years under his belt going to work for NPAS for £50k?
No, they went for the job they loved and were spectacularly well trained for - despite the poor salary offered
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UK SAR TC are paid fairly well compared to their brethren on the continent --> https://www.aviationcv.com/en/ad/447...l-crew-members
And this constant whine about SAR TC having no proper License like Pilots is utter bull**** as well, especially since EASA has created many years ago the role and regcongnised certificate for HEMS which includes SAR.
Legal stuff --> https://arkisto.trafi.fi/filebank/a/...2)(ii)_eng.pdf
Training Courses --> https://atc.air-zermatt.ch/wordpress...s-course-2019/
And this constant whine about SAR TC having no proper License like Pilots is utter bull**** as well, especially since EASA has created many years ago the role and regcongnised certificate for HEMS which includes SAR.
Legal stuff --> https://arkisto.trafi.fi/filebank/a/...2)(ii)_eng.pdf
Training Courses --> https://atc.air-zermatt.ch/wordpress...s-course-2019/
AS,
Pay euros, get eurotrash. If the French want to pay their technical crew €23k, that’s great, but I’m not sure what bearing that has on UKSAR? Also, there is no mention of a paramedic qualification as a requirement.
Detgnome,
I agree with crab (never saw that coming). If you’re analogy about military salaries being higher is correct, let’s pay the pilots 50-60K?
The fact remains, many of the TC BRS needed to attract to make UKSAR work had been on the flights for years; they had a simple choice of crossing over to the coastguard or going back to a role some had not fulfilled since the 90’s.
Pay euros, get eurotrash. If the French want to pay their technical crew €23k, that’s great, but I’m not sure what bearing that has on UKSAR? Also, there is no mention of a paramedic qualification as a requirement.
Detgnome,
I agree with crab (never saw that coming). If you’re analogy about military salaries being higher is correct, let’s pay the pilots 50-60K?
The fact remains, many of the TC BRS needed to attract to make UKSAR work had been on the flights for years; they had a simple choice of crossing over to the coastguard or going back to a role some had not fulfilled since the 90’s.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Have a look at the 2018-19 pay levels for the RAF and you'll see that you don't have to be on PAS to be earning more than SAR TC - a top range Sgt is on £42K without adding in flying pay, a top range F Sgt is a shade under £50K.
RN Observers as a Lt could be on £40 - £48K depending on time in rank , again without flying pay.
Jim said those PAS rates were maximums but most of the rearcrew I worked with were on over £50K.
No fake news
RN Observers as a Lt could be on £40 - £48K depending on time in rank , again without flying pay.
Jim said those PAS rates were maximums but most of the rearcrew I worked with were on over £50K.
No fake news
Jim supplies elevated paysacles that were the exception within the MOD never mind the SARF, suggesting somehow that is what everyone in UK SAR should be on even though he has never worked in either organisation. Crab uses rumor about current pay and compares to Jim's post suggesting TC were all somehow "insulted". Once 'outed' further suggests without evidence that even a SGTs and FS pay is higher than TC pay.
Like I said fake news. But we are all impressed that you care so much.
as365 subtle but true, you made me giggle with "utter bull****". Pay for TC will not magically explode if a TC licence was introduced. Offshore, multi engine pilots pay is based on a highly competitive market and their licence has little to do with that. If it was just a case of licence then NPAS and HEMS would get the same rates. The TC market is simply not there on the same scale, unfortunate but true.
Pay for TC will not magically explode if a TC licence was introduced. Offshore, multi engine pilots pay is based on a highly competitive market and their licence has little to do with that. If it was just a case of licence then NPAS and HEMS would get the same rates. The TC market is simply not there on the same scale, unfortunate but true.
The whole piece is driven by market forces i.e. supply and demand; you can spend all day arguing about what people are worth or what they should be paid, but it won't change anything. Either take the job or don't - no one is holding a gun to your head. Smells a bit like a sense of entitlement here crab - are you becoming a snowflake?
I do hope none of you detractors are SAR pilots - if so you clearly don't either understand or value what your SAR TC do - in UK anyway. Great to be crewed up with you............
I know how well our rearcrew were trained and they earned every pound of their non-market force pay.
You cannot deny the fact (MOD Payscales are hardly fake news) that they are paid far less in BRS for doing the same job they did in the military - whereas the pilots are paid more than they were - I believe that decision was made by ex-mil officer pilots who didn't have a huge regard for their rearcrew.
One thing that is blindingly obvious when you look into the wider world of SAR TC across the planet - you can pay what you like but the quality will reflect that pay and pretty much anyone can call themselves SAR TC but precious few wouild be able to hold a candle to UK trained SAR TC, especially the ex-mil.
BRS have queered the pitch for the next SAR contract- they had the chance to set a high standard of Ts and Cs and fell at the first hurdle. The next contractor will have fewer legacy TC and will either have to spend a lot on training new ones or just drop the standards of UKSAR.
AS365N$ - a 1 week course to be a HEMS TC.........really, do you really think that makes them any good?????? And, as pointed out earlier, do not confuse HEMS with SAR TC - very different roles.
I know how well our rearcrew were trained and they earned every pound of their non-market force pay.
You cannot deny the fact (MOD Payscales are hardly fake news) that they are paid far less in BRS for doing the same job they did in the military - whereas the pilots are paid more than they were - I believe that decision was made by ex-mil officer pilots who didn't have a huge regard for their rearcrew.
One thing that is blindingly obvious when you look into the wider world of SAR TC across the planet - you can pay what you like but the quality will reflect that pay and pretty much anyone can call themselves SAR TC but precious few wouild be able to hold a candle to UK trained SAR TC, especially the ex-mil.
BRS have queered the pitch for the next SAR contract- they had the chance to set a high standard of Ts and Cs and fell at the first hurdle. The next contractor will have fewer legacy TC and will either have to spend a lot on training new ones or just drop the standards of UKSAR.
AS365N$ - a 1 week course to be a HEMS TC.........really, do you really think that makes them any good?????? And, as pointed out earlier, do not confuse HEMS with SAR TC - very different roles.
