UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
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Satsuma - My apologies if I'm crossing a line, it's not my intention, I'm just trying to explain the context of why anybody would ever want to ask my humble opinion on this subject on national radio.
Crashworthy seating it may be but considering the focus on emergency exit size (and indeed passenger size) in the North Sea in recent months following the Sumburgh ditching, you would think those cabin emergency exits would be more accessible. The backs of the seats quite clearly cover about half of the window. How can that be considered an improvement in safety?
I can just imagine the scorne that you and many others would rightly poor on the operator who designed a UK SAR aircraft built to O&G rules and regs. I'm still chuckling now at picturing row upon row of O&G compliant seating for fair paying passengers, just like in the back of a sea king of course
Jerry, I hope that in your book and in your media interviews, you highlight the fact that the SAR heroes are the rear-crew, not the pilots - we get to sit in a comfy and (generally) dry cockpit while they get smashed into decks, dunked in freezing water and left on dark mountainsides and have to deal with all manner of horrific injuries to the casualty.
How many years did you do in SAR?
How many years did you do in SAR?
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Snakepit
What are you babbling about? The basic function of an emergency exit is that it permits an adult human to escape without hindrance, whatever the aircraft's role. How do those seats meet that requirement?
What are you babbling about? The basic function of an emergency exit is that it permits an adult human to escape without hindrance, whatever the aircraft's role. How do those seats meet that requirement?
Come on Satsuma, you really do seem to be just picking for the sake of picking. How exactly do you plan to fill an aircraft with crashworthy seats, carry the maximum number of people physically possible, have every seat next to a full-size emergency exit, etc,etc.
The seats in that SAR fit are NOT blocking Emergency Exits - they are blocking escape windows, which is a different thing.
The seats in that SAR fit are NOT blocking Emergency Exits - they are blocking escape windows, which is a different thing.
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Far South,
Can you or one of your colleagues post some photos of the inside of one of the soon to be operational aircraft at Humberside or Inverness then please, showing ALL the seats required to satisfy the contract and how no emergency exits are obstructed. While you're at it, take a picture of the strange stretcher stowage contraption so we can all have a laugh.
Try making the distinction between an escape window and an emergency exit to the gentleman trying to get out of it before he drowns and see how far you get.
Please remember, I wasn't the one who made extravagant claims about enhanced safety so I'm not just being picky for the sake of it, merely redressing the balance.
Can you or one of your colleagues post some photos of the inside of one of the soon to be operational aircraft at Humberside or Inverness then please, showing ALL the seats required to satisfy the contract and how no emergency exits are obstructed. While you're at it, take a picture of the strange stretcher stowage contraption so we can all have a laugh.
Try making the distinction between an escape window and an emergency exit to the gentleman trying to get out of it before he drowns and see how far you get.
Please remember, I wasn't the one who made extravagant claims about enhanced safety so I'm not just being picky for the sake of it, merely redressing the balance.
Last edited by satsuma; 6th Mar 2015 at 14:00.
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Brilliant solution! Perhaps runs 7 & 8 in the HUET should have cabin occupants' exits impeded by a seat which they have to remove - while everyone else does the same with their seats. What could possibly go wrong? Run 8 can have a representative weight dummy strapped into the seat. Good luck writing that risk assessment.
No need for the photos Far South. You can see the seats in front of an emergency exit on the TV news footage on page 76 (post 1515).
EASA have signed this off, right? Who was doing the certification that day? Homer Simpson?
No need for the photos Far South. You can see the seats in front of an emergency exit on the TV news footage on page 76 (post 1515).
EASA have signed this off, right? Who was doing the certification that day? Homer Simpson?
Last edited by satsuma; 6th Mar 2015 at 15:24.
Oh Satsuma. If this is troubling you so very much and clearly causing you such incredible levels of stress and hysteria then why don't you simply travel to Humberside, introduce yourself (perhaps keep the Satsuma bit secret) and go see for yourself? You can ask questions and take photos to your hearts content.
I'm sure they'd be delighted to show you around and is anything really worth such high blood pressure. You might even get a nice cup of tea.
I'm sure they'd be delighted to show you around and is anything really worth such high blood pressure. You might even get a nice cup of tea.
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Same again
It'll be troubling you and your organisation more if people drown in the back of one of your ditched aircraft because their attempt to exit is impeded by what appears to be a woeful design flaw. And it will trouble you even more if it was a known hazard and you did bugger all about it. Now, seeing as I'm still waiting for you to tell me what your NVG limitations are from a few pages back (admit it, you don't really know, do you?) your cavalier disregard for legitimate safety concerns is of no real surprise to me. Does it not strike you as odd that at a time when in the North Sea we are having to concern ourselves with passenger size, window size and window accessibility following the Sumburgh ditching and the difficulty the deceased appear to have had escaping, in SAR it's considered ok to partially block the exits with seat backs? Will it take a multiple drowning before you sit up and take notice? I hope for your sake you're not the one that'll be in the dock. Because someone will.
It'll be troubling you and your organisation more if people drown in the back of one of your ditched aircraft because their attempt to exit is impeded by what appears to be a woeful design flaw. And it will trouble you even more if it was a known hazard and you did bugger all about it. Now, seeing as I'm still waiting for you to tell me what your NVG limitations are from a few pages back (admit it, you don't really know, do you?) your cavalier disregard for legitimate safety concerns is of no real surprise to me. Does it not strike you as odd that at a time when in the North Sea we are having to concern ourselves with passenger size, window size and window accessibility following the Sumburgh ditching and the difficulty the deceased appear to have had escaping, in SAR it's considered ok to partially block the exits with seat backs? Will it take a multiple drowning before you sit up and take notice? I hope for your sake you're not the one that'll be in the dock. Because someone will.
It would be no trouble at all to entertain you Satsuma. Although the crews maybe out training to prepare for important issues such as the start of contract. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about many issues relating to the shiny new aircraft so please go along and ask yourself. You can play in the cockpit, run up and down the cabin and jump up and down in the hangar there as much as you like.
If you think that anyone actively involved in the contract is going to publish sections of the SAR Operations Manual here then you are very much mistaken. As I said before in relation to ANVIS, these details are protected and are on a need to know basis and you are clearly someone who does not need to know.
If you think that anyone actively involved in the contract is going to publish sections of the SAR Operations Manual here then you are very much mistaken. As I said before in relation to ANVIS, these details are protected and are on a need to know basis and you are clearly someone who does not need to know.
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Same again
Same again, looking at the photos from the U.S., Satsuma does have a point, though, doesn't he? No number of personal slights or put downs can really move those seat backs quickly, unfortunately. Maybe they will change position between there and here and you know that but are keeping it secret for some greater good?
I don't think anybody except those who need to know will be allowed anywhere near the aircraft in Humberside. Shouldn't they be under armed guard due IStarbinladen?
"Don't let the public near the thing, for goodness sake!! Yes they paid for it but they also pay my first pension and I don't let them anywhere near that phnaar phnaar"
Are tea making facilities up and running in Humberside? Good show.
I don't think anybody except those who need to know will be allowed anywhere near the aircraft in Humberside. Shouldn't they be under armed guard due IStarbinladen?
"Don't let the public near the thing, for goodness sake!! Yes they paid for it but they also pay my first pension and I don't let them anywhere near that phnaar phnaar"
Are tea making facilities up and running in Humberside? Good show.
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Hey Crab
Couldn't agree more. I've been striving to emphasise at every opportunity that there can be very few teams as tightly knit and as mutually respectful as a SAR crew.
Ref length (but you know what they say about length!) it was an all-too-brief 4 years from '76 to '80. Brief but intense ... probably the most satisfying job an aviator can do.
I'd be interested in your input to the question I was asked yesterday; What have been the most significant changes between then and now? Apart from the obvious civilian handover I named GPS and colour IR. Got any good additions to that?
Couldn't agree more. I've been striving to emphasise at every opportunity that there can be very few teams as tightly knit and as mutually respectful as a SAR crew.
Ref length (but you know what they say about length!) it was an all-too-brief 4 years from '76 to '80. Brief but intense ... probably the most satisfying job an aviator can do.
I'd be interested in your input to the question I was asked yesterday; What have been the most significant changes between then and now? Apart from the obvious civilian handover I named GPS and colour IR. Got any good additions to that?
Jerry, I think the changeover from the Wessex to the Sea King was a very big change in capability - then the introduction of NVG and finally the change to the winchman's job spec, turning him/her into a paramedic.
Will the new SAR service bring as big a change as any of those? Who knows but technology can always surprise you.
Will the new SAR service bring as big a change as any of those? Who knows but technology can always surprise you.
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The basic function of an emergency exit is that it permits an adult human to escape without hindrance, whatever the aircraft's role. How do those seats meet that requirement?
The 92 has only 4! emergency exits which are the 4 windows at each corner of the cabin and they are clearly marked as such on the inside and outside of the helicopter!
Any other window is just for pax entertainment like on a Fixed Wing.
Some numbties are playing dumb on purpose on this thread?
It's good to see Jerry and Crab taking a look at the changes that have occurred in the past. The history has a lot to offer us when trying to keep this change in realistic perspective.
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as365n4
I'll try and make this as simple as possible for you. I think that's what's required. Look at the footage of the Humberside aircraft in this link.
Mountain Rescue Team helicopter training | Border - ITV News
Where the passengers are doing the brace position, you can see that the seats stretch all the way down to the ramp. In other words, they are in front of the rear starboard emergency exit.
If you look at the cabin photo a couple of pages ago, you will see that the seating configuration stops short of the emergency exit - yet what is clear is that the seat backs significantly obscure the escape windows. What is less clear is the emergency exit handle for the rear starboard exit (coloured red). You can see from its height above the floor that were a seat to be in front of that exit (as is the case with Humberside's aircraft and therefore, we must assume, all future UK Sar S92s), then access to the mechanism for opening the emergency exit is blocked by a seat - and perhaps by the chap sitting in it.
I can only count 8 passengers on the starboard side of that aircraft in the video which means they are probably seating two more (to meet the required 10) on the rearmost port seats behind the fuel tank - and thus also blocking the rear port exit and its activation handle. How can that meet with the safety regulator's approval? Escape windows being blocked is bad enough but I accept that they're not mandatory. Emergency exits (and their activation handles) being blocked is a different story and a big no no. So how has this slipped through the net?
I'll try and make this as simple as possible for you. I think that's what's required. Look at the footage of the Humberside aircraft in this link.
Mountain Rescue Team helicopter training | Border - ITV News
Where the passengers are doing the brace position, you can see that the seats stretch all the way down to the ramp. In other words, they are in front of the rear starboard emergency exit.
If you look at the cabin photo a couple of pages ago, you will see that the seating configuration stops short of the emergency exit - yet what is clear is that the seat backs significantly obscure the escape windows. What is less clear is the emergency exit handle for the rear starboard exit (coloured red). You can see from its height above the floor that were a seat to be in front of that exit (as is the case with Humberside's aircraft and therefore, we must assume, all future UK Sar S92s), then access to the mechanism for opening the emergency exit is blocked by a seat - and perhaps by the chap sitting in it.
I can only count 8 passengers on the starboard side of that aircraft in the video which means they are probably seating two more (to meet the required 10) on the rearmost port seats behind the fuel tank - and thus also blocking the rear port exit and its activation handle. How can that meet with the safety regulator's approval? Escape windows being blocked is bad enough but I accept that they're not mandatory. Emergency exits (and their activation handles) being blocked is a different story and a big no no. So how has this slipped through the net?