UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
Two more SAR S-92A registered on Friday. That's nine so far.
Registration Details
Mark: G-MCGH
Current Reg. Date: 19/12/2014
Previous ID: N234TR
Manufacturer: SIKORSKY AIRCRAFT
Type: SIKORSKY S-92A
Serial No.: 920234
Ownership Status: Chartered
Registered Owners: BRISTOW HELICOPTERS LTD, DYCE
Registration Details
Mark: G-MCGI
Current Reg. Date: 19/12/2014
Previous ID: N235U
Manufacturer: SIKORSKY AIRCRAFT
Type: SIKORSKY S-92A
Serial No.: 920235
Ownership Status: Chartered
Registered Owners: BRISTOW HELICOPTERS LTD, DYCE
Registration Details
Mark: G-MCGH
Current Reg. Date: 19/12/2014
Previous ID: N234TR
Manufacturer: SIKORSKY AIRCRAFT
Type: SIKORSKY S-92A
Serial No.: 920234
Ownership Status: Chartered
Registered Owners: BRISTOW HELICOPTERS LTD, DYCE
Registration Details
Mark: G-MCGI
Current Reg. Date: 19/12/2014
Previous ID: N235U
Manufacturer: SIKORSKY AIRCRAFT
Type: SIKORSKY S-92A
Serial No.: 920235
Ownership Status: Chartered
Registered Owners: BRISTOW HELICOPTERS LTD, DYCE
Have they actually got their SAR training centre at Inverness on line yet?
That would have been my first priority since nothing clogs quicker than a training system without adequate resources.
That would have been my first priority since nothing clogs quicker than a training system without adequate resources.
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Omerta
I hope you're not expecting an answer. As soon as you ask anything resembling a searching question to the current UK civvy SAR fraternity the shutters come down and a form of Omerta comes into play. One contributor suggested this was down to 'commercial sensitivity' a few months ago but that's nonsense. Those same people that shut up shop when asked a perfectly reasonable question are more than happy to breach 'commercial sensitivity' and fly the flag when they want to brag about something. Put them on the spot though and the code of silence reappears. Do they not realise that these are often questions that are in the public interest and a public forum where straight answers (ie non-management speak) can be given is the ideal place to allay fears and inform others that aren't in the know of how things are progressing? But those opportunities aren't taken and that can lead to the conclusion that things aren't going well.
A commonly expressed concern is that the 'no reduction in quality of service' principle will be compromised by the inadequacy of some aspects of the training that is undertaken. Not practising night wets appears to be a classic example. How can you expect to be able to rescue someone from the water at night if you haven't practised it? A few months back I asked someone/anyone to reassure us by giving us details of the currency requirements for frontline crews and therefore, as part of that, whether they did indeed practise night wets and that the concerns were unjustified. What did we get back? NOTHING. What conclusion should we therefore draw from that?
We constantly hear that civilian crews have been performing SAR in the UK since the mid 80s but when challenged to prove that they practised one of the most fundamental SAR disciplines, they didn't take the opportunity. I guess night wets must be a piece of p1ss. What else don't they practise I wonder?
A commonly expressed concern is that the 'no reduction in quality of service' principle will be compromised by the inadequacy of some aspects of the training that is undertaken. Not practising night wets appears to be a classic example. How can you expect to be able to rescue someone from the water at night if you haven't practised it? A few months back I asked someone/anyone to reassure us by giving us details of the currency requirements for frontline crews and therefore, as part of that, whether they did indeed practise night wets and that the concerns were unjustified. What did we get back? NOTHING. What conclusion should we therefore draw from that?
We constantly hear that civilian crews have been performing SAR in the UK since the mid 80s but when challenged to prove that they practised one of the most fundamental SAR disciplines, they didn't take the opportunity. I guess night wets must be a piece of p1ss. What else don't they practise I wonder?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Have they actually got their SAR training centre at Inverness on line yet?
That would have been my first priority since nothing clogs quicker than a training system without adequate resources.
That would have been my first priority since nothing clogs quicker than a training system without adequate resources.
The reason I say that is because even though CivSAR has been in the UK since 1971 it is only in April 2015 that a contract becomes operational which has a full appropriate range of technical requirements (including a low light requirement).
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I can't agree. There should be no reduction in the quality of service. Full stop. That's what has been promised since day one.
This isn't about technical aspects of the aircraft, it is about currency and re-currency. We are constantly told that civilian SAR crews have been producing a world-leading capability (Bristow's words, not mine Rescue Helicopter ? SAR Helicopter ? Search & Rescue Helicopter - bristowgroup.com ) yet they don't even practise night wets. And neither are they going to. There is no currency requirement to do so and neither will there be. No one here will admit it but it's true. How can that be a world-leading capability and how is that no reduction of quality of service in the UK? Night wets can be flucking hard work even for those that practise it regularly and they have the potential to fluck you up in a major way if you attempt it without having done it before.
This isn't about technical aspects of the aircraft, it is about currency and re-currency. We are constantly told that civilian SAR crews have been producing a world-leading capability (Bristow's words, not mine Rescue Helicopter ? SAR Helicopter ? Search & Rescue Helicopter - bristowgroup.com ) yet they don't even practise night wets. And neither are they going to. There is no currency requirement to do so and neither will there be. No one here will admit it but it's true. How can that be a world-leading capability and how is that no reduction of quality of service in the UK? Night wets can be flucking hard work even for those that practise it regularly and they have the potential to fluck you up in a major way if you attempt it without having done it before.
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 22nd Dec 2014 at 20:19.
Have you bothered to find out anything about this contract?
Do you understand that if you judge a contract that hasn't even started yet by the performance on contracts with substantially different, and lesser, requirements, then you are not being fair?
Do you understand that if you judge a contract that hasn't even started yet by the performance on contracts with substantially different, and lesser, requirements, then you are not being fair?
I think the point Vie is trying to make is that I and others have been shouted down by the assertion that Civ SAR is at least as good as milSAR and cheaper too! That was the foundation of civilianising us in the first place.
So, now there are questions about the provision of aircraft and training (none of which get answered) we are being unfair to them because the contract hasn't started yet!!!!!
Perhaps HMS Bristow don't do night wets because the RN never did either......
So, now there are questions about the provision of aircraft and training (none of which get answered) we are being unfair to them because the contract hasn't started yet!!!!!
Perhaps HMS Bristow don't do night wets because the RN never did either......
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jimf671
I very much doubt anyone has bothered to find out as much about the contract as you have. However, that does not make you the font of all SAR knowledge. Stick to your mountain stuff and you'll be fine.
I very much doubt anyone has bothered to find out as much about the contract as you have. However, that does not make you the font of all SAR knowledge. Stick to your mountain stuff and you'll be fine.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I think the point Vie is trying to make is that I and others have been shouted down by the assertion that Civ SAR is at least as good as milSAR and cheaper too! That was the foundation of civilianising us in the first place. ...
June 1971 to March 2015? Hey, on you go. Knock yourself out.
Questions linger over the bases that are still GAP until 2017 of course. How those are managed will be interesting.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
... ... Perhaps HMS Bristow don't do night wets because the RN never did either......
Vie sans frontieres
Calm down dear. You may burst something if you keep this up.
Why don't you phone up Bristows and ask them to post on here for your piece of mind. I'm sure they have so little to do right now, they would be more than willing to mop your fevered brow.
Calm down dear. You may burst something if you keep this up.
Why don't you phone up Bristows and ask them to post on here for your piece of mind. I'm sure they have so little to do right now, they would be more than willing to mop your fevered brow.
Jim, you are right that the contract has still to begin and, in theory, should provide no lesser service.
However, the provision of SAR training, both initial and front-line, is what I have done for many years so I do have concerns that the new training pipeline isn't fully established yet and that the 'on the job' training (based on the number of contracted flying hours) will be woefully inadequate.
It is not enough to have a clever and shiny new aircraft (I know the S92 is a very capable machine) if the crew are only ever going to rely on those automatics to get the job done.
To be a truly equivalent service, lots and lots of time 'hands-on' will be required.
Fortunately, the number of already well-trained ex-mil crews will have a very sound base to work from but for those without such experience they face a life of being 'children of the magenta' slavishly doing only what the automatics will let them.
However, the provision of SAR training, both initial and front-line, is what I have done for many years so I do have concerns that the new training pipeline isn't fully established yet and that the 'on the job' training (based on the number of contracted flying hours) will be woefully inadequate.
It is not enough to have a clever and shiny new aircraft (I know the S92 is a very capable machine) if the crew are only ever going to rely on those automatics to get the job done.
To be a truly equivalent service, lots and lots of time 'hands-on' will be required.
Fortunately, the number of already well-trained ex-mil crews will have a very sound base to work from but for those without such experience they face a life of being 'children of the magenta' slavishly doing only what the automatics will let them.
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P3 Bellows
Thank you for confirming my argument. So you won't be doing night wets then? What about trapped decks? Or multi-seat dinghies? Or a cliff hangar? When was the last time you practised any of these? (Don't worry, I know I'm not going to get an answer.) Omerta.
Thank you for confirming my argument. So you won't be doing night wets then? What about trapped decks? Or multi-seat dinghies? Or a cliff hangar? When was the last time you practised any of these? (Don't worry, I know I'm not going to get an answer.) Omerta.
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Civilian SAR Training
Vie sans frontieres
The present CHC AW139 Units at Portland and Lee do practice the above.
So you won't be doing night wets then? What about trapped decks? Or multi-seat dinghies? Or a cliff hangar?
Possibly because their rear-crew trainers were ex-RAF
You will appreciate that crew member responsibilities and career structures vary across SAR helo providers. CivSAR crew are not on a three year tour and some roles are narrower than in the military. I think we have to factor this into any assessment of the training time. Initially of course there will be a large training load and the three month lead in will go a long way go address this.
I remain concerned about rear crew status in the regulatory framework and possible effects on training. SAR is not BIG HEMS. It is principally about access, often in extraordinary circumstances. In a SAR helo this means that the principal skill set for all crew is airmanship, with the boy scout first aid badge or BSc Med Sci coming second. It may be time for the CAA to get over reorganising and create a bold and practical new approach to this.
I remain concerned about rear crew status in the regulatory framework and possible effects on training. SAR is not BIG HEMS. It is principally about access, often in extraordinary circumstances. In a SAR helo this means that the principal skill set for all crew is airmanship, with the boy scout first aid badge or BSc Med Sci coming second. It may be time for the CAA to get over reorganising and create a bold and practical new approach to this.