UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
Al-bert - yes, I can read that you said my suggestion was not exactly right, and cited two examples where it was wrong. Not exactly right means to me, generally right but not in every case. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you should write more clearly? Communication is so important in SAR, or so they tell me! If your message was intended to be sarcasticly contrary to what you meant, again I would say that is not a good way to communicate in professional aviation.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 10th Apr 2013 at 16:05.
I am not in the "SAR division" so probably of no consequence to me personally, but I still have a slight dread of a large influx of SAR gods with superiority complexes who will exhaust themselves saying "we should do it like This - as we did in the military" and pouting and sulking when they don't get their way, rather than just getting on with the job as defined in Bristow's SAR ops manual. Hopefully I am quite wrong, but it is the tone of some contributers on this thread that makes me think otherwise!
SAR gods with superiority complexes
. What evidence do you have for this SAR god mil pilot you seem to want to tar every SAR mil pilot with?When I left the RAF to fly in the NS I found it enlightening to see that I was only wanted as a pilot no other duties were required. I didn't feel the need to change the way they operated!! I couldn't even be a crusty old captain as the first ten years of my time on the NS I flew single pilot
I have no interest in who has got the contract as I am now retired and even if I was still flying in the NS I wouldn't want to go back to SAR - it is a younger man's game - once I started wearing glasses the thought of trying to peer through a rain and salt caked windscreen while trying to formate on a wildly pitching deck wasn't my idea of fun. I'd rather be sitting on an oil rig watching Sky TV before picking up the "lads" from an unmanned platform at the end of their shift
With want now appears to be a huge number of people wanting to go SAR will Bristow start a new business unit with new payscales that disengage the salaries from those paid to oil and gas pilots? I would
HF
Last edited by Hummingfrog; 10th Apr 2013 at 16:07.
HF - my chip, as I mentioned, is not relevant and anyway I am more of a frites man.
My evidence that we have in the past recruited some SAR gods is my personal experience, admittedly some time ago. My evidence that the SAR gods still live, is this thread!
New business unit with lower payscales? Well it would make sense only in the short term for new recruits. Those lining up to go across to SAR from O&G would think again, and in the longer term it would make it very difficult to recruit from oil and gas into SAR once the eflux of mil sar was depleted.
My evidence that we have in the past recruited some SAR gods is my personal experience, admittedly some time ago. My evidence that the SAR gods still live, is this thread!
New business unit with lower payscales? Well it would make sense only in the short term for new recruits. Those lining up to go across to SAR from O&G would think again, and in the longer term it would make it very difficult to recruit from oil and gas into SAR once the eflux of mil sar was depleted.
anyway I am more of a frites man.
Like Hummingfrog, I too am retired and don't care who gets the contract. I'm all for Civ SAR and wish the boys and girls (some of whom will undoubtably be sar gods/godesses) all the very best of luck for the future
ps I was once likened to a Jedi, not a God as such!
HC
Why would you have to recruit from oil and gas? Once the SAR contract is up and running I presume that wastage would be low as, unlike the military who tend to spend 3yrs in one location before moving on either by promotion, rerole or retirement, pilots would stay in SAR for some time.
The wastage caused by retirement would then be managed by promoting co-pilots to captain and then recruiting new co-pilots who would be put through the Bristow equivalent of SARTU before being allocated to a base. There would be no need to recruit from oil and gas so salaries can remain lower than oil and gas and more profit can be taken by head office
HF
Al-bert - I think he means pomme frites - those things from the bratty wagon we used to smother in mayo.
in the longer term it would make it very difficult to recruit from oil and gas into SAR once the eflux of mil sar was depleted.
The wastage caused by retirement would then be managed by promoting co-pilots to captain and then recruiting new co-pilots who would be put through the Bristow equivalent of SARTU before being allocated to a base. There would be no need to recruit from oil and gas so salaries can remain lower than oil and gas and more profit can be taken by head office
HF
Al-bert - I think he means pomme frites - those things from the bratty wagon we used to smother in mayo.
Last edited by Hummingfrog; 10th Apr 2013 at 16:40.
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Rotorhub April/May . Editor piece on SAR Contract award.
In a move that will be watched closely by other government
agencies around the world, the UK has moved ahead with plans
to privatise SAR services across the country.As we report this issue in the news pages, the UK Department forTransport (DfT) announced the award of the £1.6 billion ($2.4 billion) contract to Bristow Group, bringing an end to military involvement in the SAR arena. Bristow will now provide a fleet of new S-92s and AW189s to operate from ten bases across the country from 2015 to 2026.
The knee-jerk reaction from some sections of the wider UK media was as predictable as it was amusing – painting the move as a US corporate giant doing Prince William, a flight lieutenant who commands a SAR crew at RAF Valley in Anglesey, North Wales, out of a job (one television
correspondent helpfully informed us that ‘there are two types of Sea King helicopter: one is yellow and one is red/grey’).
I am certainly not a fan of privatisation for its own sake, especially when it comes to critical national infrastructure, but the announcement should be regarded as a positive development for the UK as it looks to life beyond the Sea King from 2016. While the smaller internal capacity of the AW189 in particular has been seized on by some, the capabilities of the new aircraft, including increased speed and modern avionics/flight control systems, will make life a lot easier for pilots on more demanding SAR missions.
Certainly, the question of whether the ‘ethos’ surrounding the SAR mission will change once civilian crews take over from the military is an emotive but valid one. However, there is no doubting Bristow’s commitment or expertise in the SAR arena, any more than there would have been if Bond or CHC had secured the contract.
For a feature published in this issue, Matthew Smith spoke to many of the operators providing SAR services for government and oil and gas customers (before Bristow’s latest success was announced), and their dedication to the SAR mission is clear. Bristow itself, which had a long British heritage before being acquired by Offshore Logistics in 1996, has been providing SAR services in the UK since 1971. This includes more than 15,000 missions, during which more than 7,000 people were rescued by company-operated helicopters.
With the AW189 slated to be built at AgustaWestland’s UK facility in Yeovil, Somerset, the contract will help shore up the helicopter manufacturing capability resident in the UK. The DfT has also done well in putting the previous botched privatisation attempt behind it in awarding the contract.
For those who weren’t watching, the earlier SAR-H programme was abandoned after allegations that a former member of the joint Ministry of Defence/DfT integrated project team had assisted the Soteria consortium in its bid preparation by providing access to commercially sensitive information.
Losing the preferred bidder status effectively amounted to a £6 billion penalty for Soteria team members CHC, Thales and the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The delay caused by the SAR-H drama did not remove the simple fact that the Sea Kings will reach the end of their working lives in 2016. Handing the keys over to Bristow will allow the military, which is itself increasingly being squeezed by reductions in staff and cuts to equipmentprogrammes, to focus its attention on frontline duties.
agencies around the world, the UK has moved ahead with plans
to privatise SAR services across the country.As we report this issue in the news pages, the UK Department forTransport (DfT) announced the award of the £1.6 billion ($2.4 billion) contract to Bristow Group, bringing an end to military involvement in the SAR arena. Bristow will now provide a fleet of new S-92s and AW189s to operate from ten bases across the country from 2015 to 2026.
The knee-jerk reaction from some sections of the wider UK media was as predictable as it was amusing – painting the move as a US corporate giant doing Prince William, a flight lieutenant who commands a SAR crew at RAF Valley in Anglesey, North Wales, out of a job (one television
correspondent helpfully informed us that ‘there are two types of Sea King helicopter: one is yellow and one is red/grey’).
I am certainly not a fan of privatisation for its own sake, especially when it comes to critical national infrastructure, but the announcement should be regarded as a positive development for the UK as it looks to life beyond the Sea King from 2016. While the smaller internal capacity of the AW189 in particular has been seized on by some, the capabilities of the new aircraft, including increased speed and modern avionics/flight control systems, will make life a lot easier for pilots on more demanding SAR missions.
Certainly, the question of whether the ‘ethos’ surrounding the SAR mission will change once civilian crews take over from the military is an emotive but valid one. However, there is no doubting Bristow’s commitment or expertise in the SAR arena, any more than there would have been if Bond or CHC had secured the contract.
For a feature published in this issue, Matthew Smith spoke to many of the operators providing SAR services for government and oil and gas customers (before Bristow’s latest success was announced), and their dedication to the SAR mission is clear. Bristow itself, which had a long British heritage before being acquired by Offshore Logistics in 1996, has been providing SAR services in the UK since 1971. This includes more than 15,000 missions, during which more than 7,000 people were rescued by company-operated helicopters.
With the AW189 slated to be built at AgustaWestland’s UK facility in Yeovil, Somerset, the contract will help shore up the helicopter manufacturing capability resident in the UK. The DfT has also done well in putting the previous botched privatisation attempt behind it in awarding the contract.
For those who weren’t watching, the earlier SAR-H programme was abandoned after allegations that a former member of the joint Ministry of Defence/DfT integrated project team had assisted the Soteria consortium in its bid preparation by providing access to commercially sensitive information.
Losing the preferred bidder status effectively amounted to a £6 billion penalty for Soteria team members CHC, Thales and the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The delay caused by the SAR-H drama did not remove the simple fact that the Sea Kings will reach the end of their working lives in 2016. Handing the keys over to Bristow will allow the military, which is itself increasingly being squeezed by reductions in staff and cuts to equipmentprogrammes, to focus its attention on frontline duties.
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Again people starting to say the right things about UK SAR
Civilian flying rules relaxed for Bristow search and rescue service deal - Scotland / News / The Courier
Civilian flying rules relaxed for Bristow search and rescue service deal - Scotland / News / The Courier
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BRS latest update on UK SAR. Might answer some of the rumour mill stuff
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1
So the CAA are happy to relax their rules where it won't cost them any money (weather limits) but not where it will (licencing)?
I know everyone that has already paid for and jumped through the hoops for their ATPLs and IRs will disagree but it's a real shame that the MOD at every recent opportunity, and transition to SAR-H was probably the best, have not pushed harder for a decent set of exemptions for military pilots.
I know everyone that has already paid for and jumped through the hoops for their ATPLs and IRs will disagree but it's a real shame that the MOD at every recent opportunity, and transition to SAR-H was probably the best, have not pushed harder for a decent set of exemptions for military pilots.
Okay, so it's off topic - but I just had to quote this from the Bristow briefing...no doubt quoted from elsewhere:
"SAR is not a front line activity, so the UK government is able to release people back to the military".
So...which rear-echelon personnel hasn't got DPM's?
"SAR is not a front line activity, so the UK government is able to release people back to the military".
So...which rear-echelon personnel hasn't got DPM's?
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I agree. The thread seems like its getting back on track and providing a more useful debate and fact sharing thread.
I do wonder how the experienced current mil SAR guys are going to be able to get S-92/AW189 experience before they can be Capts at same time maintain SAR cover (crew levels)? ala Managed Transition.
Maybe these guys will have to accept Copilot slots and play catchup, hoping for natural wastage and Capt slots becoming available a few years down the line?
I am not under the illusion that there will be lots of immediately ex-mil SAR guys/girls getting the jobs but I would expect, a hand ful? So even 1 or 2 from each SAR Flt released 'early' to get S92/AW189 experience on oil & gas, for eg, will hurt manning of the flts, a lot, and go against Managed Transition (MT) philosophy. In summary, I guess I'm concluding that MT might have a huge negative effect on the mil guys in otherwise good positions to join Bristow SAR UK.
Ideas welcomed?
HS
I do wonder how the experienced current mil SAR guys are going to be able to get S-92/AW189 experience before they can be Capts at same time maintain SAR cover (crew levels)? ala Managed Transition.
Maybe these guys will have to accept Copilot slots and play catchup, hoping for natural wastage and Capt slots becoming available a few years down the line?
I am not under the illusion that there will be lots of immediately ex-mil SAR guys/girls getting the jobs but I would expect, a hand ful? So even 1 or 2 from each SAR Flt released 'early' to get S92/AW189 experience on oil & gas, for eg, will hurt manning of the flts, a lot, and go against Managed Transition (MT) philosophy. In summary, I guess I'm concluding that MT might have a huge negative effect on the mil guys in otherwise good positions to join Bristow SAR UK.
Ideas welcomed?
HS
HS,
Spot-on with the 'elephant in the room'.
To my eyes MT has really been devised strongly in favour of military manning to somehow maintain control over the exodus (however small or large) and therefore maintain flights on-state until endex. Bristow can call all the shots, they are essentially free to recruit whom they like so long as the DfT contract requirements are fulfilled. There is nothing to stop anybody who holds a licence PVR'ing and negotiating on their own terms with Bristow. The 'mutually agreeable PVR date' relies totally on an individual's loyalty to the MOD. IMHO MT doesn't appear to be robust enough to guarantee a smooth transition to SAR-H which is surely what it's one and only purpose was meant to be? I'm hoping the Bristow road-shows will prove me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.
Spot-on with the 'elephant in the room'.
To my eyes MT has really been devised strongly in favour of military manning to somehow maintain control over the exodus (however small or large) and therefore maintain flights on-state until endex. Bristow can call all the shots, they are essentially free to recruit whom they like so long as the DfT contract requirements are fulfilled. There is nothing to stop anybody who holds a licence PVR'ing and negotiating on their own terms with Bristow. The 'mutually agreeable PVR date' relies totally on an individual's loyalty to the MOD. IMHO MT doesn't appear to be robust enough to guarantee a smooth transition to SAR-H which is surely what it's one and only purpose was meant to be? I'm hoping the Bristow road-shows will prove me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.
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Yes, thanks meanttobe and Bremen for the links, thats just what I was looking for. I was starting to get tired of the willy waving competiton that has been going on.
, thats just what I was looking for. I was starting to get tired of the willy waving competiton that has been going on.
There is nothing to stop anybody who holds a licence PVR'ing and negotiating on their own terms with Bristow.
Additionally, the flying pay and pension hits that those not on PAS will take if they PVR may also sway many.
It is in the greatest interests of both sides that the managed transition works.
Interesting thoughts about lower pay scales for SAR than offshore - what will stop low time pilots taking the co-pilot slots, getting their type rating, IR and time on type before departing for oil and gas and rock-star wages?
The same could be said of anyone going in to SAR in the next few years - if the pay isn't right, there will be an exodus to where it is better giving a constant dilution of experience and a higher through-life training cost (which is expensive) for the contract.
The Bristow name has a lot of credibility in UK - some American business practices do not - let us hope that the desire to make money does not outweigh the need to provide the quality SAR service everyone is expecting.
... before departing for
oil and gas and rock-star wages?
oil and gas and rock-star wages?
.
This is where engaging fully with Managed Transition makes huge sense for Bristow.
.
.
What have you given up to keep doing SAR and to fight for SAR standards and kit? Make that leap out from the page and the job's a goodun.
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Bondage is a dirty word
Those (non TUPE) joining UK SAR without a type rating will be under a bonding agreement to Bristow(normal company procedure UK wide with all operators)
. After that has expired they are free to move to UK oil & gas with who ever they want to. If UK SAR is a different BU within Bristow, then that may not be so easy in terms of T's & C's (as is the CHC problem).
With BSP setting up SAR 2014, Bristow & CHC stand to lose up to 20 SAR qualified crew. However some Northern UK/Ireland crew waiting patiently for a UK base of choice may stay for that rather than the Far East and not miss the boat back in the UK. After a stint with BSP, it will be only the less attractive UK SAR bases open to those that return on completion of their time there. As 212man mentioned..the timing for Bristow has come at an unfortunate period. The great news being this healthy need for crews everywhere is great for terms and conditions.
. After that has expired they are free to move to UK oil & gas with who ever they want to. If UK SAR is a different BU within Bristow, then that may not be so easy in terms of T's & C's (as is the CHC problem).
With BSP setting up SAR 2014, Bristow & CHC stand to lose up to 20 SAR qualified crew. However some Northern UK/Ireland crew waiting patiently for a UK base of choice may stay for that rather than the Far East and not miss the boat back in the UK. After a stint with BSP, it will be only the less attractive UK SAR bases open to those that return on completion of their time there. As 212man mentioned..the timing for Bristow has come at an unfortunate period. The great news being this healthy need for crews everywhere is great for terms and conditions.
Avoid imitations
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I see no mention of the age limits - bearing in mind they are asking for ex-military crews to apply. Anyone seen info on this?