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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 4th May 2017, 18:03
  #2641 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Scotland
Age: 51
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Caught a glimpse of the AW189 over Fort William this afternoon, presumably training or recce of some sort?

I'll miss the S-92 when it goes, but the 189 looks to be a considerably more nimble machine that the flying box that is the S-92. The 189 sounds like the offspring of a Lynx & EC135 - much confusion & running to windows for a good look!
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Old 1st Jul 2017, 19:10
  #2642 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
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Changing of the guard.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDqBCReXgAA9NMT.jpg:large
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 00:06
  #2643 (permalink)  
 
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Nice picture Jim
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 01:44
  #2644 (permalink)  
 
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Not seen any jobs. Maybe it was a playstation shift at PIK today.

S-92s off to Stornoway.

Sad times at Portland.
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 01:57
  #2645 (permalink)  
 
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Nice picture
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 21:58
  #2646 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimf671 View Post
Not seen any jobs. Maybe it was a playstation shift at PIK today.

Or maybe not.
https://twitter.com/ardrossan02/stat...57666257760256
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 16:43
  #2647 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
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The full fleet is still not deployed on this contract and it is not yet clear when this will be complete. The scenario keeps changing.

A Bristow Group earnings forecast of a few days ago still shows money for the remaining four AW189s available only in September 2019 yet two of those aircraft were transferred to BHL on the register just a few days before that was published.

Yesterday, Golf Uniform landed at Lydd to join Golf Papa for a work-up period (6 wk is typical???) prior to taking over from the 139s.

So what does this do to the programme for St Athans and Inverness?

Has BHL financed these a/c in a different way?

Has Government levered this?

Anyone know who got the job at MCA Aviation prepping for UKSAR-Gen2?

======================================

New Info: Fri 23rd, Golf Papa returned to Lee-on-Solent to be replaced at Lydd by Golf Victor. So the two newly transferred (to BHL) aircraft appear to be doing work-up at Lydd.

Last edited by jimf671; 24th Feb 2018 at 00:03. Reason: New info.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 20:22
  #2648 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by jimf671 View Post
The full fleet is still not deployed on this contract and it is not yet clear when this will be complete. The scenario keeps changing.

A Bristow Group earnings forecast of a few days ago still shows money for the remaining four AW189s available only in September 2019 yet two of those aircraft were transferred to BHL on the register just a few days before that was published.

Yesterday, Golf Uniform landed at Lydd to join Golf Papa for a work-up period (6 wk is typical???) prior to taking over from the 139s.

So what does this do to the programme for St Athans and Inverness?

Has BHL financed these a/c in a different way?

Has Government levered this?

Anyone know who got the job at MCA Aviation prepping for UKSAR-Gen2?
I donít know the answers to your questions. I do know however that I feel I am providing a more effective service with Bristow than I did in mil SAR and I feel much, much safer doing it. Opinion my own. Sorry to those who bristle reading this.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 22:02
  #2649 (permalink)  
 
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No need for bristling - we (milSAR) would have been far more effective and safer with all the shiny new aircraft but were never given a chance - a big shame but we have moved on.

Just remember though that you are part of a money-making business now so let's hope the finances keep going.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 22:36
  #2650 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
No need for bristling - we (milSAR) would have been far more effective and safer with all the shiny new aircraft but were never given a chance - a big shame but we have moved on.

Just remember though that you are part of a money-making business now so let's hope the finances keep going.
What kind of a reply is that? Outside of the military itís all commercial. And hell the military wasnít immune, it was ultimately money that led to it being offloaded.

Pray tell, what selfless, non commercial, immune from financial risk branch of rotary aviation are you doing now?
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 00:44
  #2651 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by drugsdontwork View Post
... ...

Pray tell, what selfless, non commercial, immune from financial risk branch of rotary aviation are you doing now?

Not expecting a full answer are you?
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 00:45
  #2652 (permalink)  
 
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I believe that we now have a world-class service of a calibre that even many developed nations can only dream of. Its equipment and focus is different from many other nations because of our latitude, seas, terrain and climate.

Many of those providing the service are same people who provided it before but with four or five thousand shaft horsepower and some of the best 21st century kit available.

At a meeting earlier, I acquired the task of arranging another two helicopter-MRT training exercises this year. I will do that knowing that though they may be cancelled due to jobs on the day, at least the aircraft won't be broken, have major performance issues, rubbish comms, major leaks, burning power supplies, ....

Some small problems still need sorting. The one big problem still outstanding is that the 'Westland Affair Mk13' as I call it drags on and on slowing AW189 deployment across the Lot 2 bases. Latterly though, it appears it might be as much a Houston problem as a Yeovil one.

Maybe we'll see AW189 operating in the Brecon Beacons, out of St Athans, by the end of 2018 but I've stopped trying to guess when they'll be deployed at Inverness. A smaller and more agile aircraft available for tricky mountain jobs in the north could be a big plus with a S-92 from Stornoway still in the picture for wide area searches. It could be 4 years into a 10 year contract before the promised spec is in place. Not clever.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 09:10
  #2653 (permalink)  
 
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What kind of a reply is that? Outside of the military itís all commercial. And hell the military wasnít immune, it was ultimately money that led to it being offloaded.
You forget that SAR was unloaded from the MoD because everything at the time was Afghan-centric and we weren't seen as 'core' military business - therefore they were never going to prioritise replacing the Sea King when we needed more Chinooks and a re-engine of the Lynx along with the Puma 2 plan etc etc.

Also, remember that the SARForce was specifically excluded from both the competitions so the actual cost of MilSAR was never properly established - probably because the decision had already been made that SAR would go Civ - not least because there was a very ambitious Chief Coastguard driving things along. You would have been working for Soteria if the first competition hadn't been fouled.

I am quite content that my current employment is revenue generating and I don't have a problem with a private company being paid by the Govt to provide a service - however, when a company is only kept afloat by one Govt contract (Big Bristow is apparently suffering financially) it doesn't take a genius to see that Carillion-style mismanagement could easily happen in order to present a 'happy' picture to both the shareholders and the Govt.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 09:25
  #2654 (permalink)  
 
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Iím still not getting it. Yes, Bristow could go bust. However, it looks to have weathered the storm largely now. Itís a risk, for sure, but itís a risk every company has. As is, being offloaded by the MOD because of higher priorities. The MOD is a slave to the politicians who can and do slash and burn willy nilly, with no real regard to the wider picture, because big boy decisions have to be made with limited resources. The MOD is just as much of a risk for having SAR, if not more so given the precarious state of their budget and defence reviews around every corner. My point is, there is risk no matter who has it. Thatís the reality. Another reality is the quality of kit we have, the protection from being beasted with excessive working hours, etc etc. For gods sake we didnít even have a TAS in the Sea King, never mind TCAS 2, EPGWS and all the other toys that are considered essential to keep us alive in the busy airspace of the U.K.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 10:23
  #2655 (permalink)  
 
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I have to say as well that the attitude to risk is better now with civilian SAR. It was a bit of a shock when I came across and learned that we donít commit the aircraft for training. And itís a bit of a pain in the backside now when we want to achieve certain training elements. But I shudder now when I look back to the hours and hours of being committed to night drums, the SMIT or other boats, and probably more often than we care to admit, to the top of a bunch of MR guys and girls. You and I Crab both know how quickly the cab would drop in a hover advanced single engine exercise. Yes we endeavoured to commit away from hazards but where was the data set to support that decision making? Mil SAR brought a mil approach to risk. How many times did we commit to nasty hover taxiing up hills for a twisted sock? All the bloody time. All of us did it. We got away with it largely thank god. Civvy SAR has its frustrations but if you want to talk about risk itís mitigated much more these days than it was.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 11:26
  #2656 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I understand the risk issues but we were military pilots who might be asked to do far more dangerous things than just hover committed - it was more about mindset than anything else. You don't find SH pilots bleating about operating near the limits of their aircraft in hostile conditions but unfortunately, some in the MilSAR force forget they were actually in the military and became slightly Prima-donna-ish about such things.

Yes, the risk/reward balance sometimes went the wrong way but you know as well as I do that the initial scramble report may be wildly wrong about the nature of the injuries and you don't want to be the one who played the 'safety card' when someone was bleeding out on a hill.

Perhaps it is a generational thing and the fact that I did more than just SAR in 32 years but I have always been comfortable with the risks involved - once you start worrying yourself about that too much you would never get airborne.

I agree entirely about the advantages of all the new kit and I am the biggest advocate of things like TAS - I wouldn't fly without it now - but I still maintain that using 'power-by the hour' or similar COMO terms would have retained out Mil capability whilst equipping us with the best kit available - I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater.

I know Bristow have the best people - I used to work with most of them!
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 16:24
  #2657 (permalink)  
 
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drugsdontwork:

You missed something:

The military have a word the civvies aren't allowed to use in commercial ops:
ATTRITION.
The MoD builds in attrition when they mitigate risk, which is why several of their "Ops" are ALARP'd in the red sector. Something the civvy world would run a mile from.

Is it a good or bad thing?

In the mil - the saying goes: Couldn't take a joke.....shouldn't have joined.
In civvy street, risks cost money. Money rules. Don't take (red) risks.

IE: Don't do SAR training if you can't hover on one engine. Only do it in anger.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 16:43
  #2658 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Risk and Safety

I find this conversation mildly amusing but respect your understandable modern day concerns.
Life was far more simple in my military SAR days in the late 60s and early 70s when we only had one engine to worry about. I cannot recall failing to launch ever.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 17:09
  #2659 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
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My comments on risk may be amusing, Iím glad they are. Itís not my own aversion to risk, Iím quite happy with that, like you say canít take a joke etc etc. But Iím not sure itís fair to extend a cavalier, itís only atttition approach to the MRT and others who huddle or dangle under the aircraft. They didnt join the military after all.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 18:32
  #2660 (permalink)  
 
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They didnt join the military after all.
No, but they are all volunteers and expose themselves to very risky scenarios on the sides of mountains in atrocious weather so you shouldn't deny their willingness to accept every risk. Yes. try to minimise risk where possible but SAR isn't a risk-free business (well unless you don't actually want to rescue anyone) whether done by MRT, RNLI, heliSAR or anyone else.

The engine-failure in a twin is so unlikely nowadays, especially in modern, state of the art helicopters that avoiding ever training when not OEI capable is frankly overkill and makes training properly far less likely.

The aversion to hovering committed became very high-profile on the Sea King following the OTG problems - not actual engine failures - and plenty of people got very precious about it. During the period we were trying to mitigate it, the quality of our training went down dramatically.

Remember, you are not training for the easy jobs, you are training for the hard ones and, if you don't accept some risks in training, you will be poorly prepared for reality.
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