UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
My understanding is that the Falklands aircraft have the LIPS deicing spec whereas the UK SAR aircraft were always intended to have the FIPS deicing spec.
I seem to remember that a Rotorheads contributor has already made a few statements about the power requirements and the difference between the two fits.
The chances of having FIPS ready for the UK contract start was always known to be slim. Dragging a bit now though.
SLB, the delays were never about ice protection. The potential for these systems to get fully developed and certified in winter 2014/15 was always slim and entering service with LIPS or with no ice protection may have been a fallback option for one or more bidders.
I seem to remember that a Rotorheads contributor has already made a few statements about the power requirements and the difference between the two fits.
The chances of having FIPS ready for the UK contract start was always known to be slim. Dragging a bit now though.
SLB, the delays were never about ice protection. The potential for these systems to get fully developed and certified in winter 2014/15 was always slim and entering service with LIPS or with no ice protection may have been a fallback option for one or more bidders.
Bristow are not very happy with the SAR AFCS in the 189 as it's been doing some quite erratic things. They've taken the decision not to use it until it has been addressed. FIPS is quite a small issue in comparison.
I would imagine that the AAR machines are encountering the same but they've decided to go live anyway.
LZ
I would imagine that the AAR machines are encountering the same but they've decided to go live anyway.
LZ
Do tell us what is substantially different with regard to say AFCS SAR Modes
Jim,
Thanks for the explanation. So no FIPS for the Falkland 189's. If that is wise we will see in the near future as they are heading into autumn and winter.
If you say that the FIPS problems are not the reason for the delays for the UK 189's then there must be other differences between UK and Flkl outfitting of the 189's.
Can you inform us?
SLB
Thanks for the explanation. So no FIPS for the Falkland 189's. If that is wise we will see in the near future as they are heading into autumn and winter.
If you say that the FIPS problems are not the reason for the delays for the UK 189's then there must be other differences between UK and Flkl outfitting of the 189's.
Can you inform us?
SLB
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Doesn't have Bristow Issues with the Operators Workstation and their stupid position in the A/C as well?
Like Roof mounted Displays where the Sliding Doors are, instead of having them beside the Bubble Windows.
And doesn't Bristow have stopped all 189 Operation and put them in Storage because of the very excellent Product Support from Agusta.
Like Roof mounted Displays where the Sliding Doors are, instead of having them beside the Bubble Windows.
And doesn't Bristow have stopped all 189 Operation and put them in Storage because of the very excellent Product Support from Agusta.
Reasons?
- Modern powerful aircraft
- Right size and capability (AW139 already proved too small)
- Glass cockpit and NVG compatability
- Half a chance of being ready in time (unlike competitors)
- Government loved the idea that production of the SAR variant could be British
OK, some issues with the last one. But what else was there?
(BIH aircraft NOT British.)
Let's look at the oil price. What's happening there? Well, it's just over a third of what it was two years ago and not expected to recover any time soon. So what do you expect for new helicopter types introduced recently? Yes, that's right, nobody is desperate to keep them in the air. Looking back to 2004 when the S-92 and EC225 were introduced, the oil price was rising and kept rising and they'd pay for anything that could fly.
- Modern powerful aircraft
- Right size and capability (AW139 already proved too small)
- Glass cockpit and NVG compatability
- Half a chance of being ready in time (unlike competitors)
- Government loved the idea that production of the SAR variant could be British
OK, some issues with the last one. But what else was there?
(BIH aircraft NOT British.)
Let's look at the oil price. What's happening there? Well, it's just over a third of what it was two years ago and not expected to recover any time soon. So what do you expect for new helicopter types introduced recently? Yes, that's right, nobody is desperate to keep them in the air. Looking back to 2004 when the S-92 and EC225 were introduced, the oil price was rising and kept rising and they'd pay for anything that could fly.
You're a funny guy as365n4.
Let's look at two companies introducing AW189 SAR.
Company A
Nearly a couple of thousand employees. SAR at ten operational locations using up to 22 aircraft and planning for 11 of this type. SAR management have experience in the training sector or with fixed wing aircraft.
Company B
Nearly a couple of hundred employees. SAR at one operational location using two aircraft. SAR management have a 24-carat rotorcraft background including SAR.
Which company do you think is best placed to respond to a challenging procurement and development programme with a new type of SAR rotorcraft? (Especially if somebody has already shown them how not to do it.)
Company A
Nearly a couple of thousand employees. SAR at ten operational locations using up to 22 aircraft and planning for 11 of this type. SAR management have experience in the training sector or with fixed wing aircraft.
Company B
Nearly a couple of hundred employees. SAR at one operational location using two aircraft. SAR management have a 24-carat rotorcraft background including SAR.
Which company do you think is best placed to respond to a challenging procurement and development programme with a new type of SAR rotorcraft? (Especially if somebody has already shown them how not to do it.)
Is this not all done and dusted? 
No chance.
Planned implementation was not due to be complete until July 2017 but with a delayed AW189 deployment we are now looking at a further year before the contracted solution is implemented. That's if everything goes to plan.
So what has happened since the last few posts in April?
Well, sh1t loads of damned good SAR helicopter work for one thing. I put myself forward as one of many witnesses to that for both the Main UK SAR contract and GAP-North. Well done guys.
The really good bit is that when somebody needs an aircraft, there are 10 bases out there that each have at least one serviceable aircraft. (Usually 11 during the day.) Happy days are here again.
There are things that never appeared in the contract spec and that sort of thing can be a bit of a problem. For instance, the word DOG never appeared in the original tech matrix and doesn't appear in the final spec for the Main contract.
Regardless, everyone involved has got stuck in and barring tiny wrinkles in the training administration, it all works and search dogs are fine. I do not expect that is the last problem. 
. . .
In a recent Bristow Group earnings publication, we learned something of the plan for the AW189. They have set aside $115 million for buying the remaining eight AW189 SAR required. (So the register is correct that only three of those completed and flown so far are actually owned by BHL.) Then they tell us when they expect that money will be required, in a programme starting about now and ending in early 2018.
OK, so you get your techie guys all over the aircraft, then when it's OK you pay for it, then your techies mess with it some more, then your aircrew are all over it like a bad rash, and several months later it enters service? So add 3 to 6 months onto the purchase programme to get the implementation programme?
Meanwhile, all manner of 189 rumours from mid-2015 continue, with head and feet added. Some folks who were sold the idea of a S-92 career are still getting their heads round the new reality. Half the Coasties and MR guys are thinking 'Change? No change there then?' and the other half are just 'WTF?'
..
No chance.
Planned implementation was not due to be complete until July 2017 but with a delayed AW189 deployment we are now looking at a further year before the contracted solution is implemented. That's if everything goes to plan.
So what has happened since the last few posts in April?
Well, sh1t loads of damned good SAR helicopter work for one thing. I put myself forward as one of many witnesses to that for both the Main UK SAR contract and GAP-North. Well done guys.
The really good bit is that when somebody needs an aircraft, there are 10 bases out there that each have at least one serviceable aircraft. (Usually 11 during the day.) Happy days are here again.
There are things that never appeared in the contract spec and that sort of thing can be a bit of a problem. For instance, the word DOG never appeared in the original tech matrix and doesn't appear in the final spec for the Main contract.
Regardless, everyone involved has got stuck in and barring tiny wrinkles in the training administration, it all works and search dogs are fine. I do not expect that is the last problem. . . . In a recent Bristow Group earnings publication, we learned something of the plan for the AW189. They have set aside $115 million for buying the remaining eight AW189 SAR required. (So the register is correct that only three of those completed and flown so far are actually owned by BHL.) Then they tell us when they expect that money will be required, in a programme starting about now and ending in early 2018.
OK, so you get your techie guys all over the aircraft, then when it's OK you pay for it, then your techies mess with it some more, then your aircrew are all over it like a bad rash, and several months later it enters service? So add 3 to 6 months onto the purchase programme to get the implementation programme?
Meanwhile, all manner of 189 rumours from mid-2015 continue, with head and feet added. Some folks who were sold the idea of a S-92 career are still getting their heads round the new reality. Half the Coasties and MR guys are thinking 'Change? No change there then?' and the other half are just 'WTF?'
..
So the contract is still not being met???
I thought the 139s were supposed to be a temporary fix but I believe some who were 189 qualified have retrained on 139.
Meanwhile, what of the complaints about lack of performance vs range, FIPS being worse than useless in its reliability and vibration problems because the FIPS replaced a vibration absorber?
I thought the 139s were supposed to be a temporary fix but I believe some who were 189 qualified have retrained on 139.
Meanwhile, what of the complaints about lack of performance vs range, FIPS being worse than useless in its reliability and vibration problems because the FIPS replaced a vibration absorber?
Contract between DfT and Bristow? Bumps along the way but during the last 15 months hundreds of people are safe who might not otherwise have been.
Contract between Bristow and AgustaWestland? ... slough of despond.
Regarding performance and range, as I understand it, the dry weight of the long range tank was supposed to be 150kg but ended up over twice that and the drag from the side-by-side double winch and other SAR toys is more than expected.
Anybody know the story about the damper?
.
Contract between Bristow and AgustaWestland? ... slough of despond.
Regarding performance and range, as I understand it, the dry weight of the long range tank was supposed to be 150kg but ended up over twice that and the drag from the side-by-side double winch and other SAR toys is more than expected.
Anybody know the story about the damper?
.
Regarding performance and range, as I understand it, the dry weight of the long range tank was supposed to be 150kg but ended up over twice that and the drag from the side-by-side double winch and other SAR toys is more than expected.
Apparently, Russ Torbet of Bristow has announced at Farnborough that Lee-on-Solent will start as per the original plan in spring 2017, with the AW189. This will be the first AW189 base.
It will be followed by
- Prestwick (!!!)
- Lydd
- St Athans
- Inverness
So, start at the end and work back to the beginning.
Snippets in MCA tweets also.
It will be followed by
- Prestwick (!!!)
- Lydd
- St Athans
- Inverness
So, start at the end and work back to the beginning.
Snippets in MCA tweets also.
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HM Coastguard trial Jetstream 41 Turboprop
Not rotary but thread related.
HM Coastguard are trialling a Jetsream 41 turboprop to provide support to their SAR helicopters. Not the first fixed wing aircraft to operate in HMCG colours but probably the first to operate with SAR as primary function.
I can't post the hyperlink as forum rules appear not to allow blogsp*t to be included. Any help would be appreciated.
For those interested, further details and a pic are available on HM Coastguard blogsp*t date 9 Sep 2016 - available through any good search engine.
HM Coastguard are trialling a Jetsream 41 turboprop to provide support to their SAR helicopters. Not the first fixed wing aircraft to operate in HMCG colours but probably the first to operate with SAR as primary function.
I can't post the hyperlink as forum rules appear not to allow blogsp*t to be included. Any help would be appreciated.
For those interested, further details and a pic are available on HM Coastguard blogsp*t date 9 Sep 2016 - available through any good search engine.
Eastern is a Bristow subsidiary. They
have been engaged in flights
between the major oil and gas
centres around the north sea and
also ferry flights in support of crew-
change helicopter flights. Since the
bottom has fallen out of that market,
this may well be an ideal time to go
looking for an aircraft of a certain
size in eastern England.
A small fleet of Cessna 400 are
operated by Reconnaissance
Ventures Ltd under the HM
Coastguard brand for MCA Aviation
as part of their pollution control
operations. Since 2010, we have been
told that the Cessnas are also one of
the options for SAR top cover. The
Jetstream appears to be an
experiment in expanding the role of
SAR top cover from its current low
base level. This is happening at the
same time as our friends in the Royal
Air Force are engaging with their
friends in the United States Navy to
prepare for the introduction of nine
Boeing P8 Poseidon maritime patrol
aircraft. As I write this, ex-Nimrod
aircrew in all corners of the Empire
are experiencing itchy feet in their
earth-bound roles.
So, it may be that in the north and
west, we may have to wait for old
friends to come and watch over us
from above (!) while in the south and
east the Jetstream will soon be out
there doing some part of that role.
"Constant Endeavour"
have been engaged in flights
between the major oil and gas
centres around the north sea and
also ferry flights in support of crew-
change helicopter flights. Since the
bottom has fallen out of that market,
this may well be an ideal time to go
looking for an aircraft of a certain
size in eastern England.
A small fleet of Cessna 400 are
operated by Reconnaissance
Ventures Ltd under the HM
Coastguard brand for MCA Aviation
as part of their pollution control
operations. Since 2010, we have been
told that the Cessnas are also one of
the options for SAR top cover. The
Jetstream appears to be an
experiment in expanding the role of
SAR top cover from its current low
base level. This is happening at the
same time as our friends in the Royal
Air Force are engaging with their
friends in the United States Navy to
prepare for the introduction of nine
Boeing P8 Poseidon maritime patrol
aircraft. As I write this, ex-Nimrod
aircrew in all corners of the Empire
are experiencing itchy feet in their
earth-bound roles.
So, it may be that in the north and
west, we may have to wait for old
friends to come and watch over us
from above (!) while in the south and
east the Jetstream will soon be out
there doing some part of that role.
"Constant Endeavour"