UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
the SARF Commander and his
Crab,
I think you missed my point. I'm not questioning the standard of Operating within the RAF SAR Force, just the way it has been implemented and managed in recent years. Those within RAF SAR who have done nothing else are blind to just what a cumbersome beast it has evolved into, to the point where the higher echelons (military and government) considered it no longer viable in it's current format. The crux of my post was that over 2 years for an experienced rotary pilot to convert to SAR and achieve captaincy is endemic of a system that is over-egging itself.
I think you missed my point. I'm not questioning the standard of Operating within the RAF SAR Force, just the way it has been implemented and managed in recent years. Those within RAF SAR who have done nothing else are blind to just what a cumbersome beast it has evolved into, to the point where the higher echelons (military and government) considered it no longer viable in it's current format. The crux of my post was that over 2 years for an experienced rotary pilot to convert to SAR and achieve captaincy is endemic of a system that is over-egging itself.
I have been fortunate to work with some outstandingly professional individuals from all ranks and specialisations in the RAF SAR Force and, despite the naysayers, our track record in maritime, mountain, inland and urban search and rescue is outstanding.
Who else has a standards organisation that does no-notice Opevals, checks every SAR flt every 18 months,
Who else has a standards organisation that does no-notice Opevals, checks every SAR flt every 18 months,
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In The Trap, trapped.....
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and what SAR experience do they have? And what SAR experience will they get in the N Sea?
I'm sure they won't forget how to "do" SAR after being away for 12 months thinking about their future.
... I assume that the DfT will have to ensure the contract is being fulfilled as required which will involve some form of audit. ...
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Second star on the left
Posts: 124
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Al-Bert
What happened was that the SeaKing got old and knackered. I converted from 20 years of Wessex SAR through a SeaKing OCU that took 9 months primarily because the front line took all the servicable helicopters and left the OCU with the bent ones.
The STANEVAL (GSU) went to 10 day visits because they were all on the SeaKing and had twice as many pilots to check; allied with all the other visits to CFS, SARTU, Cyprus and even if lucky to somewhere more exotic. The rest of the time was spent with the inevitable paperwork and being controlled by the SAR Force instead of Group.
What happened was that the SeaKing got old and knackered. I converted from 20 years of Wessex SAR through a SeaKing OCU that took 9 months primarily because the front line took all the servicable helicopters and left the OCU with the bent ones.
The STANEVAL (GSU) went to 10 day visits because they were all on the SeaKing and had twice as many pilots to check; allied with all the other visits to CFS, SARTU, Cyprus and even if lucky to somewhere more exotic. The rest of the time was spent with the inevitable paperwork and being controlled by the SAR Force instead of Group.
Bristow are recruiting NOW. Have you already missed the boat?
We are all aware that we need to jump through hoops to get to where we want to be and no-one is expecting an easy ride. The fact is that those coming from the mil SAR Force will bring current expertise from SAROPs the length and breadth of the country - many here don't seem to realise that and still think that operational sharpness is something that doesn't need practice to maintain.
I think, as the dust settles, it will become obvious that there is a gulf between civvy and the mil approach to doing SAR when it comes to qualifications and standards
Since the financiers and insurers will want risks minimised and mitigated as far as possible - just cuffing it with some mates who know how to spell SAR really isn't an option.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any future audit post-privatisation has to involve ground exams and a number of sorties over a number of days where the operators' professional knowledge and abilities to perform a wide range of SAR skills by day and night is assessed by an independent examiner. Otherwise, how else will the public know it's getting value for money?
UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
OSM
You need to think big picture. The process you describe is the assessment of an individual not the performance of a multi billion pound contract!
There will be a whole raft of key performance indicators (KPIs) that will indicate the success or otherwise of the contractors solution and I'm sure JimF could find them online. The ability of an individual to read a TAF for eg will not be one of them. It will be more along the lines of base building completion, aircraft delivery, manpower, and serviceability. Just guesses but you get the picture
You need to think big picture. The process you describe is the assessment of an individual not the performance of a multi billion pound contract!
There will be a whole raft of key performance indicators (KPIs) that will indicate the success or otherwise of the contractors solution and I'm sure JimF could find them online. The ability of an individual to read a TAF for eg will not be one of them. It will be more along the lines of base building completion, aircraft delivery, manpower, and serviceability. Just guesses but you get the picture
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If aircrew are up to scratch, as we keep being told they will be, they have nothing to fear from the visit of an external assessor. Teachers didn't vote for Ofsted but it keeps them on their toes and their reports commend excellence and highlight poor performance.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd imagine that the individuals will be assessed the same way they are currently assessed in civ SAR organisations around the world: OPC (to CAA standards ie external!), LPC (to company standards ie as per the RAF SARF!), simulator rides etc.
Your suggestion of implementing what, in essence, is the current SARF cat system is overkill. It smacks of llamaman's earlier post - a system that is over-egging itself!
Your suggestion of implementing what, in essence, is the current SARF cat system is overkill. It smacks of llamaman's earlier post - a system that is over-egging itself!
Last edited by queueaitcheye; 4th Apr 2013 at 14:22.
... You need to think big picture. The process you describe is the assessment of an individual not the performance of a multi billion pound contract!
There will be a whole raft of key performance indicators (KPIs) that will indicate the success or otherwise of the contractors solution ...
There will be a whole raft of key performance indicators (KPIs) that will indicate the success or otherwise of the contractors solution ...
The DfT have upped their game. The CAA have upped their game. Whether Eeyore down at Southampton will listen to his friend Christopher Robin over at Abbey Wood and wake up before April 2015 remains in question. Aircrew performance is still important but I do not believe that it's a concern for anyone who has been standing back and looking at that big picture.
... I'm sure JimF could find them ...
I agree with Al-bert. The RAF SAR Force - when did it become a force? - seems to have become totally overblown. My career path, if you can call it that
was similar to Al's 2 tours SH in Germany and UK followed by a quick convex to SAR at Valley which was fairly rapid as I had more Wessex hours than most of the ex Whirlwind QHI's then to Chivenor for a Squadron acceptance then onto shift as again the most experienced Wessex pilot as the flight had just converted to the Wessex.
My Seaking convex after one tour on at Chivenor took 3 months with me being an Op Captain 3 months after finishing my Seaking convex. I realise the Seaking is not as serviceable as it was but 9 months for a convex unbelievable
No wonder RAF SAR is deemed too expensive
Even in my time though there were empires to be protected! I arrived at Chivenor in during the snows of 1981 having been delayed due to RAF Benson being cut off. I was told that it was OK as I couldn't have been used anyway as the flight was busy taking USLs of fodder out to the moors. I bit my tongue as I had more USL lifting hours on the Wessex than the ex Whirlwind pilots had hours on the Wessex but hey ho I was joining a new empire!!
As far as there being loads of "SAR" pilots already working in the N Sea - if they haven't done height hold out night drums/wets/decks in zero wind on a pitch black night then they aren't SAR pilots
HF
was similar to Al's 2 tours SH in Germany and UK followed by a quick convex to SAR at Valley which was fairly rapid as I had more Wessex hours than most of the ex Whirlwind QHI's then to Chivenor for a Squadron acceptance then onto shift as again the most experienced Wessex pilot as the flight had just converted to the Wessex. My Seaking convex after one tour on at Chivenor took 3 months with me being an Op Captain 3 months after finishing my Seaking convex. I realise the Seaking is not as serviceable as it was but 9 months for a convex unbelievable
No wonder RAF SAR is deemed too expensive
Even in my time though there were empires to be protected! I arrived at Chivenor in during the snows of 1981 having been delayed due to RAF Benson being cut off. I was told that it was OK as I couldn't have been used anyway as the flight was busy taking USLs of fodder out to the moors. I bit my tongue as I had more USL lifting hours on the Wessex than the ex Whirlwind pilots had hours on the Wessex but hey ho I was joining a new empire!!
As far as there being loads of "SAR" pilots already working in the N Sea - if they haven't done height hold out night drums/wets/decks in zero wind on a pitch black night then they aren't SAR pilots
HF
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd imagine that the individuals will be assessed the same way they are currently assessed in civ SAR organisations around the world: OPC (to CAA standards ie external!), LPC (to company standards ie as per the RAF SARF!), simulator rides etc
Hummingfrog,
All the one's I know, have.
In the last 2 months, Bristow have recruited/internally identified enough SAR qualified pilots to require very few more.
I hope the RAF crews get a look in, but unless they sort their own futures, rather than believing the words of the RAF, who have looked after their people so well , they will be fighting for the rig jobs vacated by the new SAR crews.
Do not underestimate the competence and ability of the civvies - some of the RAF arroagance on this subject astounds me. You have no right to a position...no more than anyone else, and the RAF cannot afford for you to leave, hence their magic solution.
Speak to Bristow. See what they say.
Think a lot of clicking on JPA will rapidly ensue.
All the one's I know, have.
In the last 2 months, Bristow have recruited/internally identified enough SAR qualified pilots to require very few more.
I hope the RAF crews get a look in, but unless they sort their own futures, rather than believing the words of the RAF, who have looked after their people so well
, they will be fighting for the rig jobs vacated by the new SAR crews.Do not underestimate the competence and ability of the civvies - some of the RAF arroagance on this subject astounds me. You have no right to a position...no more than anyone else, and the RAF cannot afford for you to leave, hence their magic solution.
Speak to Bristow. See what they say.
Think a lot of clicking on JPA will rapidly ensue.
Baldeep,
Your scaremongering is a little premature. One of the requirements of the original tenders for the contract was a provision for military crews to remain employed in SAR duties as civilians. Yes, Bristow will have identified all possible internal candidates for future provisions, they have to because they can't afford to fail. At the moment, they have no idea of the numbers of those that will jump ship. Left of arc is nobody, right of arc is that all current military SAR crews will PVR. Any commercial company worth it's salt (I think Bristow falls into that category) has to have something in place for all possible outcomes, it's called contingency planning.
It would be wise to wait and see what is said at the upcoming recruitment road-shows. Judging by your username I'm probably not too wide of the mark by assuming that you are a relative youngster therefore 'wiseness' is probably not one of your strengths. Forgive me if I am wrong.
As an aside, it's in the MOD's interest to lose significant numbers of SAR aircrew. Post-SDSR we are already seeing significant numbers of 'spare' rotary guys as numbers within other fleets have been reduced. What do you think would be more expensive? Employing these guys to age 55 and maxing-out their pensions or letting them quietly slip away to Bristow where their significant skills and experience will be well utilised.
Please, stop the scaremongering and trying to drag this thread back to a mil v civvy bitchfest. It's all been done before.
Your scaremongering is a little premature. One of the requirements of the original tenders for the contract was a provision for military crews to remain employed in SAR duties as civilians. Yes, Bristow will have identified all possible internal candidates for future provisions, they have to because they can't afford to fail. At the moment, they have no idea of the numbers of those that will jump ship. Left of arc is nobody, right of arc is that all current military SAR crews will PVR. Any commercial company worth it's salt (I think Bristow falls into that category) has to have something in place for all possible outcomes, it's called contingency planning.
It would be wise to wait and see what is said at the upcoming recruitment road-shows. Judging by your username I'm probably not too wide of the mark by assuming that you are a relative youngster therefore 'wiseness' is probably not one of your strengths. Forgive me if I am wrong.
As an aside, it's in the MOD's interest to lose significant numbers of SAR aircrew. Post-SDSR we are already seeing significant numbers of 'spare' rotary guys as numbers within other fleets have been reduced. What do you think would be more expensive? Employing these guys to age 55 and maxing-out their pensions or letting them quietly slip away to Bristow where their significant skills and experience will be well utilised.
Please, stop the scaremongering and trying to drag this thread back to a mil v civvy bitchfest. It's all been done before.
Last edited by llamaman; 4th Apr 2013 at 18:57.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Llamaman
Calming and might I say wise words too. However, Baldeagle or whatever his name is, has touched on something akin to the elephant in the room.
Bristow are recruiting. Bristow will road show and they will nominate a certain number of current mil pilots to slot into the new world. BUT, they call the shots now and they will cherry pick. IF there are enough slots out there in offshore land, then quite a few will get picked up, but the train is leaving the station and IF many pilots from outside Long SAR gravitate to Bristow from their own side and other companies, there won't be much left when the managed transition commences.
At the end of the day the MT is for the benefit of the mil, NOT the individual. Always remember that.
Calming and might I say wise words too. However, Baldeagle or whatever his name is, has touched on something akin to the elephant in the room.
Bristow are recruiting. Bristow will road show and they will nominate a certain number of current mil pilots to slot into the new world. BUT, they call the shots now and they will cherry pick. IF there are enough slots out there in offshore land, then quite a few will get picked up, but the train is leaving the station and IF many pilots from outside Long SAR gravitate to Bristow from their own side and other companies, there won't be much left when the managed transition commences.
At the end of the day the MT is for the benefit of the mil, NOT the individual. Always remember that.
