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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

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UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 29th Oct 2015, 18:53
  #2361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 153
N I, The only person I ever saw with a Flt Sgt MT Driver (routinely) was Sir John Grandy. Unless it was a compassionate job I can't see any reason for that to be done by a Flt Sgt, normally a job for an SAC/civvy MTD.

PM

Sorry for the thread drift.
kaitakbowler is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 19:57
  #2362 (permalink)  
 
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Blame the CAA;
When did they start paying the wages for SAR crews then???

When the civSAR flights get pinged for umpteen secondary duties (that they don't get paid extra for) guard duties, detachments, OOAs, zillions of military currencies (weapons, survival, promotion courses etc etc) then you might be able to draw a valid comparison.

You won't ever match what was required for a SAR flight, even when the engineering was civilianised and the manpower cut drastically because the demands aren't there.

One job, 6 -8 shifts a month - sounds like the Fire Brigade......

TOTD - yes, a civvy driver in a war zone for £15K.... someone isn't living in the real world and clearly resents the military...
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 20:53
  #2363 (permalink)  
 
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One job, 6 -8 shifts a month - sounds like the Fire Brigade......
I'm not sure why you are comparing a SAR flight to the fire brigade but I seem to remember you saying you did apply to be a "fireman" but they didn't want you. Perhaps they didn't have any firemans helmets big enough to fit your ego into. ISTR they only go up as far XXXL
P3 Bellows is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 22:46
  #2364 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure why you are comparing a SAR flight to the fire brigade
Er.. the amount of time off to pursue second jobs/indulge hobbies.

In my day we used to do 8 shifts a month, detachment to the Falklands, a week of Orderly Officer and fitness tests and still ask for more work.....

Have you got a bit of a thing about large fireman's helmets??????
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 22:49
  #2365 (permalink)  
 
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Crab I think you'll find it's all to do with duty hours. The CAA lay down the rules as you well know.
Sevarg is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 22:54
  #2366 (permalink)  
 
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No, it's the European Working Time directive that limits them, not for flying hours, but time at work on standby - each 24-hour shift is the equivalent of 3 normal working days, in theory anyway.

There is still discussion about whether time at home on call counts as duty time or not or if you don't get called out at night and are able to sleep.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2015, 23:45
  #2367 (permalink)  
 
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In my day we used to do 8 shifts a month, detachment to the Falklands, a week of Orderly Officer and fitness tests and still ask for more work.....
Your my bloody hero
P3 Bellows is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 02:00
  #2368 (permalink)  
 
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Your my bloody hero

You're*


(if you had done CMT 1/2, ISS or some secondary duties then you would know that)
Adam Nams is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 07:13
  #2369 (permalink)  
 
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So P3, poor grammar and no ability to recognise humour...........
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 10:52
  #2370 (permalink)  
 
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You're*

(if you had done CMT 1/2, ISS or some secondary duties then you would know that)
Or Year 4 of a decent Primary School.
charliegolf is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 13:17
  #2371 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect the EU working time directive does not apply.

Exceptions
You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job:

where 24-hour staffing is required
in the armed forces, emergency services or police
in security and surveillance
as a domestic servant in a private household
as a seafarer, sea-fisherman or worker on vessels on inland waterways
where working time is not measured and you’re in control, eg you’re a managing executive with control over your decisions
ericferret is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 13:53
  #2372 (permalink)  
 
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Change of subject.


If you had the chance to ask the Coastguard senior management a question about ARCC Fareham, what would it be?



[No Duff. No Play. No Duff No Play. H = 311000ZOCT15.]
jimf671 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 15:48
  #2373 (permalink)  
 
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How many people with aviation experience in general and SAR aviation experience in particular will he have working there?

I know of one, who is a good and well experienced chap.

Eric - EUWTD does apply - MCA are not classed as Armed Forces nor emergency services (that is just Police, Fire and Ambulance) as far as I am aware and the 24-hour manning would have to be of a non-sleeping variety.

They tried to impose it on the milSAR but the 'military imperative' card was played.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 18:13
  #2374 (permalink)  
 
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The EWTD is a 'nicety' to observe but it is not a show stopper. What matters is our FTL as laid out by the CAA. We do get quite close to that limit if you work 8 shifts per month with a night call out, where it becomes a 24 hr duty period.
Crab how many fitness tests do you do? When I was serving fitness tests were generally annual events as was your Annual PWT, WHT, etc. However what people did get time off for was daily Fiz, time for expeds and adventurous training, and of course 'personal admin'.
A major problem with the RAF SAR world was that once you were in it you rarely left it, and therefore with the exception of a quick few weeks hop down south, they didn't deploy. Bouncing from one flight to another isn't really what the mil is about, so civilianisation is the right option.
Whoever suggested i had a gripe with the military could not be further from the truth, but when you leave something, then take a closer look at how it really is, then you tend to see its flaws and weaknesses.
Norfolk Inchance is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 19:42
  #2375 (permalink)  
 
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Crab how many fitness tests do you do? When I was serving fitness tests were generally annual events as was your Annual PWT, WHT, etc.
my 'In my day' statement was an exaggerated joke - maybe I should have added some smilies or something

A major problem with the RAF SAR world was that once you were in it you rarely left it, and therefore with the exception of a quick few weeks hop down south, they didn't deploy. Bouncing from one flight to another isn't really what the mil is about, so civilianisation is the right option.
So, eventually after 10 years or so, you will have the depth of experience that milSAR had - that was the point, it was a service with a specialist core so that others could bounce in and out of it (and many did, despite what you assert) - any dilution of experience was minimal

What you have now is a very few moderately experienced people (standfast some of the rearcrew) whose experience is further diluted by those from SH, junglie, Oil and Gas and a number of others who claimed SAR experience from things like MERT and some with bare minimum (after trg) NVG skills.

Eventually, unless you get a lot of further changes, the experience levels will build but lets not pretend that that state will be reached in a few months or even a couple of years.

How many pilots in Bristow SAR have more than 10 years UK SAR experience (recent experience)? - that's what was removed by civilianisation.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 21:26
  #2376 (permalink)  
 
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I agree that Bristow has brought in many with very debatable experience, especially in rear crew with paramedics off the street with very little training. Also I am aware that there is a genuine concern regarding some of the Pilots who have been promoted, apparently because they need backsides on seats. However, SAR is not a dark art, you don't have to have seen every situation for one to be able to deal with whatever presents itself. It is better to have a sound base level, with a very healthy dollop of common sense and pragmatism, and take each job as it comes. I am definitely not suggesting that an O&G chap could be sent on SAR Ops without at least a year or two of Co-Pilot duties. There are some barely average O&G guys out there, but I have also seen a lot of extremely competent non-mil pilots, who take as much pride in their profession as many mil guys I have served with. A mix of backgrounds is invaluable; a Junglie would be excellent in mountains but pretty poor hovering over the sea with little references, whilst an ASW chap would find NVG a bit alien but drums a doodle.

For what my opinion is worth, the RAF should have cycled their crews through SAR every 2-3 years, with overlaps in the changeover dates- giving much more experience to the general RW community. This would be paying dividends with the RAF SH becoming more involved in the Littoral environment.

And the answer to your last is more than you probably think.
Norfolk Inchance is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 21:52
  #2377 (permalink)  
 
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and fitness tests
If you actually passed the '5 mile march of death' Crab then I salute you.
Same again is online now  
Old 30th Oct 2015, 23:15
  #2378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 196
jimf671 wrote;

"If you had the chance to ask the Coastguard senior management a question about ARCC Fareham, what would it be?"

How will the MCA ARCC maintain a neutral stance when considering requests for helicopters from other emergeny services that conflict with a request from a coastguard unit (probably sat next to you in the National Maritime Ops Centre)?
llamaman is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2015, 00:08
  #2379 (permalink)  
 
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Norfolk - 2-3 year cycle is impractical as you get rid of people just when they are becoming useful and give yourself a massive training burden.

Much transfer between SH and SAR wasn't possible, especially since Afghanistan, because the SH force wouldn't give up its crews (pilots or rearcrew) to go SAR - again because of training burden and also because they would never want to come back.

Most SAR isn't a dark art - right up until something a bit tricky comes up - think Carlisle floods or a quadruple ejection - then it is experience that comes to the fore - not just in terms of flying skills but in command and control and understanding how you interface with other emergency services.

The answer to my last is, no it isn't.

Same again - the CFT, as it was called, that I completed several times on exchange with the AAC was definitely more than 5 miles

Good question Llamaman
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2015, 01:10
  #2380 (permalink)  
 
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I agree that Bristow has brought in many with very debatable experience
Well thank goodness you're there to keep them all right

The EWTD is a 'nicety' to observe but it is not a show stopper.
I would maybe read up on the EWTD bit prior holding your next SAR GOD masterclass
Vespel92 is offline  

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