2 x Helicopters crash in Berlin
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A zero zero landing is not a running landing. It is what it says on the tin!!
Certainly worked fine for me and my chums in Wessex and Seakings in any depth and quality of snow.
I my experience, a run-on landing (with skid or wheels) only work as long there is very little snow, and you are sure about the surface below the snow.
Certainly worked fine for me and my chums in Wessex and Seakings in any depth and quality of snow.
Sorry, should have read my post before posting......
I know that we are not talking running landing here, but still my comments are valid for me. A direct (zero-zero) landing leaves very little margin for error or unforseen snow or surface conditions, and even less so with heavy hcp's. I feel a high hover (if you have the power) is safer in the long run, and all conditions. Provided you have the references for it.
This is my experience, and I only post it as an opinion.
I would be intresting to hear the opinion of other pilots operating in 3-4 feet of snow or more.
CB
I know that we are not talking running landing here, but still my comments are valid for me. A direct (zero-zero) landing leaves very little margin for error or unforseen snow or surface conditions, and even less so with heavy hcp's. I feel a high hover (if you have the power) is safer in the long run, and all conditions. Provided you have the references for it.
This is my experience, and I only post it as an opinion.
I would be intresting to hear the opinion of other pilots operating in 3-4 feet of snow or more.
CB
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High Hover only works when the landing spot is only covered with a little snow/dust/whatever.
With the landings we usually do (burnt areas in the bush, desert landings...), there is no chance on "hover until itīs clear".....you would hover forever....
Not too much snow here, though.....but even when we did the same in snow, every landing is different.
Wet snow.....loose snow.....wet snow covered with a small layer of powder snow.....Fresh fallen powdered snow (up to 3 ft thick), covering (almost) "solid" ice.......not a good idea to do a running landing on that stuff...
What i am trying to say here:
White/Brown/Green-out landings require experience-the kind of experience that you can only get when you keep on doing these kind of landings for several hundred or thousand reps..
Itīs nothing that you can train in a 5-hour-course.....and itīs a skill that you loose when you are not using it frequently...
With the landings we usually do (burnt areas in the bush, desert landings...), there is no chance on "hover until itīs clear".....you would hover forever....
Not too much snow here, though.....but even when we did the same in snow, every landing is different.
Wet snow.....loose snow.....wet snow covered with a small layer of powder snow.....Fresh fallen powdered snow (up to 3 ft thick), covering (almost) "solid" ice.......not a good idea to do a running landing on that stuff...
What i am trying to say here:
White/Brown/Green-out landings require experience-the kind of experience that you can only get when you keep on doing these kind of landings for several hundred or thousand reps..
Itīs nothing that you can train in a 5-hour-course.....and itīs a skill that you loose when you are not using it frequently...
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No! You would be there all day/night..................and probably perish!!
ps - I have only four years experience in the Arctic in winter and many chaps here have much more experience than me. But I am still here! It would be nice to hear from 339 Squadron RNOAF who were our contemporaries at Bardufoss and who had been there, done that for many years................
I feel a high hover (if you have the power) is safer in the long run, and all conditions. Provided you have the references for it.
ps - I have only four years experience in the Arctic in winter and many chaps here have much more experience than me. But I am still here! It would be nice to hear from 339 Squadron RNOAF who were our contemporaries at Bardufoss and who had been there, done that for many years................
Last edited by bast0n; 27th Mar 2013 at 22:26.
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The Germans are publishing an status report next week about this accident, it's filed under BFU 3X010-13.
But it is basically just a first course and progress display, the actual analysis of the accident and thus the determination of causes is the (final) examination report, which is not to be expected till next year.
Main things are, where was a training session for the exercise before, which was canceled due bad weather.
The distance between the reference points was 20 and 27meters.
They did 2 full circles around the landing zone before they approached the field, but the two 332 switched positions during their final approach.
During briefing they had chosen an approach with slow speed till they reached the reference points and then a speedy touch down.
Last training regarding flying during winter time, they had in mid December as an power point presentation.
The Pilot of the EC155, 40 years old and 3841 hours experience, 928 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 27 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 14 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the EC155, 55 years old 3197 hours experience, 446 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.
The Pilot of the first AS332, 45 years old and 4140 hours flying experinece, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 30 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 15 hours. During the exercise he acted as team leader for the formation.
The Flight Engineer of the first AS332, 42 years old and 4369 hours experience, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 10 hours.
The Pilot of the second AS332, 53 years old and 4577 hours flying experience, 585 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 24 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the second AS332, 46 years old and 3092 hours flying experience, 251 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 15 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 1 hour.
The snow height at the landing zone was 17centimeters and 15centimeters on the accident site. And the landing zone in total is about 112000 square meters wide.
But it is basically just a first course and progress display, the actual analysis of the accident and thus the determination of causes is the (final) examination report, which is not to be expected till next year.
Main things are, where was a training session for the exercise before, which was canceled due bad weather.
The distance between the reference points was 20 and 27meters.
They did 2 full circles around the landing zone before they approached the field, but the two 332 switched positions during their final approach.
During briefing they had chosen an approach with slow speed till they reached the reference points and then a speedy touch down.
Last training regarding flying during winter time, they had in mid December as an power point presentation.
The Pilot of the EC155, 40 years old and 3841 hours experience, 928 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 27 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 14 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the EC155, 55 years old 3197 hours experience, 446 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.
The Pilot of the first AS332, 45 years old and 4140 hours flying experinece, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 30 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 15 hours. During the exercise he acted as team leader for the formation.
The Flight Engineer of the first AS332, 42 years old and 4369 hours experience, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 10 hours.
The Pilot of the second AS332, 53 years old and 4577 hours flying experience, 585 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 24 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the second AS332, 46 years old and 3092 hours flying experience, 251 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 15 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 1 hour.
The snow height at the landing zone was 17centimeters and 15centimeters on the accident site. And the landing zone in total is about 112000 square meters wide.
Last edited by as365n4; 28th May 2013 at 09:08.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/510...ml#post7755329
No more to say also today, but i'm sure some of course higly experienced and well informed posters knowing much more and anything better from XXXXnm away. Sometimes the yellow press is more gracious than a professional forum.
No more to say also today, but i'm sure some of course higly experienced and well informed posters knowing much more and anything better from XXXXnm away. Sometimes the yellow press is more gracious than a professional forum.
Last edited by tecpilot; 28th May 2013 at 20:13.
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This only shows us that accidents happen-no matter how much experience a pilot got..
Interesting question:
How many white out landings has the crashed pilot done in his career?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?
Interesting question:
How many white out landings has the crashed pilot done in his career?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?
How many white out landings has the crashed pilot done in his career?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?
Sure you can't compare a snow proven highland pilot with a lowlander. But be sure the high time federal police pilots are trained above the average lowlander and all of the involved pilots have done a lot of hours also in snowy conditions as HEMS pilot and on border guard missions in mountain areas.
This only shows us that accidents happen-no matter how much experience a pilot got..
Last edited by tecpilot; 29th May 2013 at 08:11.
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True-and i have been one of the guys saying so....i am glad to hear that it was NOT due to the lack of flying experience in general....
Nevertheless-was it really necessary to do an exercise in these conditions?
Yes-if they are called out (for real), they canīt change the weather-so they have to train in bad conditions, too.......but was it really worth risking it on that specific day?
Nevertheless-was it really necessary to do an exercise in these conditions?
Yes-if they are called out (for real), they canīt change the weather-so they have to train in bad conditions, too.......but was it really worth risking it on that specific day?
My dear, as you know large and long planned exercises with several involved units and commands, hundreds of troopers are not so easy to cancel in police or armed forces. Unfortunately! Especially if weather and environment conditions are demanding, but clearly within the rules.
One is always wiser after the event.
One is always wiser after the event.
Last edited by tecpilot; 29th May 2013 at 12:37.
