2 x Helicopters crash in Berlin
Avoid imitations
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The point I am pressing is that without experience in managing whiteout conditions and the incidence of whiteout, no amount of "other" preparation would have protected these crews - a point S76 seems to have clearly understood.
The trick about whiteout caused by blowing snow is not to get in the situation in the first place. It's basic stuff to know when this is likely and has been very well documented for many years. Even planning to land three helicopters in close proximity in conditions like that was far from sensible.
Using terms like "doomed" makes Joe Public think that helicopters are intrinsically unsafe and it reflects badly on the industry in general.
I agree with skadi. I know a couple of BP officers and their training is the peak of what you can get in europe police forces. Myself being one of their students I am shocked at the accident. Another lesson that although we get a lot of training and experience, sometimes its just bad luck.
Last edited by Phoinix; 22nd Mar 2013 at 17:27.
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I teach brown out (and green out-under NVGīs) landings and take-offs...i do it with low time pilots, but also with experienced pilots...
You would be shocked to see how many of them donīt cover the "dust landing" point in their "landing briefing"-and how many think they know how to land in dust conditions-and then are totally shocked, when the dark cloud is catching them...
Again: The report will show how experienced the crew was....and might show, what has really happened..
Up to this point, a mechanical failure is still possible (although unlikely).....
I just feel sorry for the pilot-he has to live with the the thought of having killed one of his colleagues.....
You would be shocked to see how many of them donīt cover the "dust landing" point in their "landing briefing"-and how many think they know how to land in dust conditions-and then are totally shocked, when the dark cloud is catching them...
Again: The report will show how experienced the crew was....and might show, what has really happened..
Up to this point, a mechanical failure is still possible (although unlikely).....
I just feel sorry for the pilot-he has to live with the the thought of having killed one of his colleagues.....
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sometimes its just bad luck
Last edited by What Limits; 22nd Mar 2013 at 17:44.
Landing 3 helicopters in a stadium may be safe in clear weather but in loose snow it is a different story.
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Helistudent, try this link for starters:If you do get yourself into rotor wash induced whiteout due to blowing snow, you have few options. Either pull pitch and fly away on instruments, or land. In a simple, VFR helicopter, you might have only the latter option and the outcome might be as per this tragic accident.
To prevent arriving in the hover and generating your own whiteout, either don't fly in the first place (!), plan to carry out a "zero speed", or run-on landing (aiming to keep the cloud of blowing snow behind you), or if you have HOGE power, an alternative is to carry out a high hover and blow the loose snow away before attempting a landing. The latter may not work so you may still have to go around and reconsider or abandon the landing altogether. If the whiteout is already there (e.g. fog/mist over lying snow, or someone else's blowing "snowcloud"), attempting a landing is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted. Go around and wait, or land somewhere else.
To prevent arriving in the hover and generating your own whiteout, either don't fly in the first place (!), plan to carry out a "zero speed", or run-on landing (aiming to keep the cloud of blowing snow behind you), or if you have HOGE power, an alternative is to carry out a high hover and blow the loose snow away before attempting a landing. The latter may not work so you may still have to go around and reconsider or abandon the landing altogether. If the whiteout is already there (e.g. fog/mist over lying snow, or someone else's blowing "snowcloud"), attempting a landing is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted. Go around and wait, or land somewhere else.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 22nd Mar 2013 at 19:46. Reason: typo/ word repetition
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That last video gives a much better picture of what went on.....
Helistudent, as a general principle of risk management, hazard avoidance and minimisation are a better bet than emergency action. Saves having to use those superhuman pilot skills you may (or may not) have. See ShyTorque's post for the particular detail. Another phrase you could think about is "situational awareness".
Have a think for yourself (with the benefit of hindsight) how you would have prevented this one. Only downside would have been that the landing would have taken a few seconds longer and involved a longer walk for the pax. A small price to pay in a training exercise.
Another one for the ever-growing HF/CRM video libraries.
RIP, very sad.
Helistudent, as a general principle of risk management, hazard avoidance and minimisation are a better bet than emergency action. Saves having to use those superhuman pilot skills you may (or may not) have. See ShyTorque's post for the particular detail. Another phrase you could think about is "situational awareness".
Have a think for yourself (with the benefit of hindsight) how you would have prevented this one. Only downside would have been that the landing would have taken a few seconds longer and involved a longer walk for the pax. A small price to pay in a training exercise.
Another one for the ever-growing HF/CRM video libraries.
RIP, very sad.
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I would be amazed if the PIC of the crash Puma had more than 1,000 hrs in command.
He continued his descent and low level manoeuvering while basically IMC. The approach was no different to how you might land without snow.
The second he went IMC while in such close proximity to another aircraft he should of upped and away.
I do realise that its easy to say this with hindsight though.
He continued his descent and low level manoeuvering while basically IMC. The approach was no different to how you might land without snow.
The second he went IMC while in such close proximity to another aircraft he should of upped and away.
I do realise that its easy to say this with hindsight though.
He doesn't want the name, he just wants to be smart and superior father figure as sometning that stupid would never happen to him. Good luck on that one.
The last person that said sometning that stupid was a pilot yesterday. 20 minutes after sharing his thought he made a take off with 350, stuck the tail skid into some snow and almost flipped the heli on its back.
The last person that said sometning that stupid was a pilot yesterday. 20 minutes after sharing his thought he made a take off with 350, stuck the tail skid into some snow and almost flipped the heli on its back.
Last edited by Phoinix; 23rd Mar 2013 at 20:31.
Seemed some very dark area's that might have worked for better reference...but would have been further away than the Ground Guide and Vehicles. I wonder if that would have made a choice of landing sites?
Also....seems the Thread Title is a bit wrong....only one aircraft crashed....the other was un un-willing Victim.
Also....seems the Thread Title is a bit wrong....only one aircraft crashed....the other was un un-willing Victim.
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers CEC and Phoinix but it was a waste of a precious life and two helicopters. As it was a poorly managed training mission is was a therefore a stupid waste. The white out conditions were evident with the first landing yet to the others continued. Some one should have been watching out for them.
Why they are trying this in such bad weather conditions?
Shocking weather!
Did anybody discuss wx minima
"Such a stupid waste. Can some one tell me who was in charge of the TRAINING sortie? "
Just about what I'd been telling the RAF for years... But I'm not in that argument anymore - I left (again)
Just about what I'd been telling the RAF for years... But I'm not in that argument anymore - I left (again)
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From the video:
All three approaches are not "ideal" for these conditions....
Although it is a good idea to keep the approach a little (!) bit steeper than a normal approach, one should keep the speed just a notch above that of a normal landing.....none of the three is doing that.
What is the reason for "rushing in" of the third one?
"Tactical scenario"?
The whole Infil seems to take ages....so it looks like the third pilot tried to "come in quick" (because itīs an exercise....you know....quickquickquick....)
If i canīt find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...
(Because: Itīs an EXERCISE.......thatīs why we TRAIN.....to AVOID making mistakes....to FIND out our limits...itīs not for showing how "Top Gun" we are already....)
All three approaches are not "ideal" for these conditions....
Although it is a good idea to keep the approach a little (!) bit steeper than a normal approach, one should keep the speed just a notch above that of a normal landing.....none of the three is doing that.
What is the reason for "rushing in" of the third one?
"Tactical scenario"?
The whole Infil seems to take ages....so it looks like the third pilot tried to "come in quick" (because itīs an exercise....you know....quickquickquick....)
If i canīt find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...
(Because: Itīs an EXERCISE.......thatīs why we TRAIN.....to AVOID making mistakes....to FIND out our limits...itīs not for showing how "Top Gun" we are already....)
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Hueyracer
Absobleedin correct! Spot on. If you cannot land safely without a reference make one. They could have used a marshaller or a toolbox or anything that will not blow away. We used to do a low pass and chuck out someone elses bergen if all else failed.
Puma number two made all the classic errors.
If i canīt find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...
Puma number two made all the classic errors.