Helicopter - v - crane LONDON

[Steve76]

The report states he was in cloud when he hit the crane. Not a nice way for it to happen but we have all done stupid things and unless you have been trying to say VFR in inclement weather, you won't have an idea how easy it is to make this error.
I have yet to see a helicopter drop from the sky due icing and I have accrued a far bit at times. Freezing Fog is the worst but when you are in cloud, low level and you suspect it is clear on top - it pays to climb.

[Senior Pilot]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

If thats how we are going to advocate we go flying its not for me.

I think we will all breath a sigh of relief with that statement. For such a low time PPL(H) you have managed to alienate most professionals on both threads on this subject with your witterings.

[mark one eyeball]

I for one find this incident and thread quite captivating, I am interested to read any comments here before the AAIB do its final report while its fresh in everyones mind
There seems to be certain things going on in helicopters ops over the City of London that a lot of folks didnt seem to know about
I am certainly finding out things just by reading this particular thread

So I am definitely in favour of more comments on this thread as a lot of it is good stuff

The incident reminds me of a time I was sitting in the back of an army helicopter going out into the rainforest in Brunei doing the flying doctor service there
As a qualified helicopter pilot I asked the army if I could go along on one of their flying doctor flights just to watch
I got the permission
We took off early in the morning and on the way to the landing site the cloud cover increased until just like this London incident we were VMC on top but on top of complete cloud cover, no hills or rainforest in sight
We got to the landing site area but there were no holes, thank god I thought as I didnt want the pilot to find one and go for it.
Holes have a tendency to fill in very quickly
Unfortunately after holding for about 30 minutes little holes began to develop and became bigger due to the rising sun and temperature
I am wearing a headset plugged in at the back so I can hear the conversation going on with his crewman (this was single pilot op with a crewman in the back).
Pilot said he could see landing area thru the forming holes, so now I started to feel uneasy I guessed what was coming up
He elected to go for a hole and shortly after entering hole we were quickly engulfed in cloud, I saw only cloud nothing else
We might have been 1500' above the ground and now IMC
The pilot says to his crewman I am in cloud look out for the trees!
At this moment I braced for impact thinking the worst, time goes slowly when in this sort of situation
Luckily we came out of cloud over a river and not a hill, that was a lucky escape

So I remember in the AAIB report the pilot commenting he could land in a field if he had to
Its this kind of go mindedness that usually leads to eventually losing the big picture

So now following this incident I want the AAIB/CAA to look more closely into helicopter operations over London especially single crew operations
I think this incident shows up a lot of shortcomings in the present situation
The airspace rules are complicated and restrictive in London

Please keep comments rolling in whoever you are we can still learn a lot about this particular incident and other folks experiences and knowledge

[pilot and apprentice]

Just throwing this out there....

Now we all know someone with a newly printed cpl, they most proberly would give their right arm for a chance to fly with an experianced pilot on these charter flights. Most are proberly trained at the company doing the flights anyway. wouldnt it make it a win win for all if an sic was in there helping the work load........

It might help avoid this type of accident in the future.

Again, unrelated to this incident:

Not necessarily. In good weather and a low workload environment (a teaching environment) yes. Otherwise, the very inexperienced pilot is just one more unpredictable system to manage. It isn't as cut and dried as people on here make out.

There is also the issue of cost for getting this student up to speed. I'd be extremely surprised to see a CPL course being run on a 109.

[paco]

"So now following this incident I want the AAIB/CAA to look more closely into helicopter operations over London especially single crew operations
I think this incident shows up a lot of shortcomings in the present situation
The airspace rules are complicated and restrictive in London"

Nonsense. This incident could have happened anywhere and is a situation faced by charter pilots daily all over the world. The UK (especially London) already has probably the most restrictive rules for flying over cities etc (with the possible exception of Canada). It really needs to be put in perspective - I've been flying around London since 1977-ish, and this is the first incident of its type. It's highly unlikely there will be any more.

If anything, it highlights a possible need for more CRM training, not more rules which will only serve to help the industry die even further.

Phil

[Agusta]

Prazum

Well said Prazum!

A lot of us knew Pete, let the AAIB do their job before making comment or putting him down for being there.

[500N]

Question re the article in the DM today with photos of the Chinnook.

Was that just a media beat up as it didn't look that close.

Crane driver captures 'near miss' with Army Chinook on camera just weeks before fatal helicopter crash | Mail Online


I did look back through the thread but couldn't see it.

[cave dweller]

Call To Battersea

Just for the record, I was on the reception desk at Battersea of the morning of the accident, At no time do I recall receiving a telephone call from the client asking if we were open. I did however take a call from Thames Radar requesting to be put through to ATC

[Lon More]

re the article in the DM today

It gives the mail a chance to re-run its shock-horror story and republish a lot of sickening photos..

I think there's a lot that hasn't yet been covered in the report. Not least, will Battersea remain open as the airspace around it becomes more densely occupied by cumulocement, or will pressure by the rich and not-so-famous be applied for their convenience?

[500N]

Lon More

Thanks figured as much.

[206 jock]

Nonsense. This incident could have happened anywhere and is a situation faced by charter pilots daily all over the world. The UK (especially London) already has probably the most restrictive rules for flying over cities etc (with the possible exception of Canada). It really needs to be put in perspective - I've been flying around London since 1977-ish, and this is the first incident of its type. It's highly unlikely there will be any more.

This is possibly true. However, I read an interview with the crane driver that helicopters regularly flew below the height of the jib. So there is no room for complacency.

I just wonder what the reaction on Rotorheads would have been if the pilot had been a 500 hour PPL(H) and not a Skygod. Somewhat different, methinks.

[chopperchappie]

Re: Call to Battersea

Cave Dweller

Thanks for the post - interesting

I am assuming that AAIB have verified calls/texts actually were logged even if they can't prove the exact contents of voice calls.

That said - what would be the benefit of telling the pilot that Battersea was open ?

[Grenville Fortescue]

An alternative graphic (in metres) of the final flight profile -

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by cave dweller

Just for the record, I was on the reception desk at Battersea of the morning of the accident, At no time do I recall receiving a telephone call from the client asking if we were open. I did however take a call from Thames Radar requesting to be put through to ATC

Have you told the AAIB about your 'record'?

[readgeoff]

@NorthSouth said

"readgeoff, re the decision to go to Redhill, NB that AFTER his client told him Battersea was open, the pilot texted his operator asking if Redhill was still clear, but the AAIB notes that the reply "Yes it’s fine still here" "was not read". So the pilot had no confirmation of conditions at Redhill, but had some inkling that Battersea might be possible. So I can't see that it necessarily indicates any kind of commercial pressure mindset. Couldn't it equally have been the client showing concern for the pilot, knowing he had taken off despite the client's advice, and trying to do his best to find somewhere for him to divert safely? He went to the trouble of phoning Battersea - apparently unprompted"

The AAIB report has the text to his operator also timed at 07.55 so it is plausible Mr Barnes was writing and sending this text before or while receiving the text from the client. Your interpreted sequence and suggestions are also plausible of course.

In my view it is entirely reasonable for a client to look for an alternative pick up point (or suggest an alternative wx diversion). It is then down to the pilot to decide the actual course of action.

[John Eacott]

I've followed this with interest, and especially appreciate the input of those with good knowledge of the route and the locality.

As with so many PPRuNe discussions there are always the keyboard warriors in love with their own opinion, but I feel many here may not appreciate that the A109E is both very stable and is easily flown with the Sperry helipilot and flight director system. Hands off control is quite usual and texting would hardly be an issue, not like many GA light helicopters: it certainly shouldn't be looked upon as a sign of poor airmanship by the pilot. Far rather, it should be seen as a sign that Peter was proactively seeking first hand information to add to his decision making ability.

I have seen nothing in the report(s) to date to indicate the speed of the helicopter, which is possibly nearly as important as the height when considering the ability to avoid obstacles. Because the Power is capable of 160kias cruise doesn't mean that Peter was not using good airmanship and flying at a slower speed, e.g. vMin? Just curious to know if there has been any reporting of plotted speeds.

[212man]

John, the AAIB bulletin shows radar traces that would appear to be at 1 second intervals. I think some cross-correlation with google earth would give you the ground speed.

[paco]

"I just wonder what the reaction on Rotorheads would have been if the pilot had been a 500 hour PPL(H) and not a Skygod. Somewhat different, methinks."

I can't see why. My reaction and comments would have been exactly the same.

Phil

[206 jock]

Phil, I should have made clearer the distinction between my two points. The second was a lot wider in context.

[SilsoeSid]

Just one thing ref the last text, "Yes it's fine still here";

Although in the SB it says, "NB. This text was not read", this doesn't necessarily mean that the text wasn't seen. Although we don't know which type of smartphone was used, certainly with iPhones and Samsung Galaxy, a message as short as 'Yes it's fine still here' can be read without 'opening' the phone.