Helitrans (Norway) AS-350 missing off coast of Germany
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Pray tell, how is one supposed to control yaw when selecting fuel off with low forward speed on final approach?
But to answer you question Anthony, the answer is - that I don't know! Sorry.
Am I wrong to think with a failed Tail Rotor drive shaft.....the tail rotor is not going to be providing any thrust as it is not going to be turning with any rapidity if at all. It might be wind milling a bit...but that isn't going to be of much use I should think.
Thus, my view is one is confronted with the procedure in the RFM that pertains to "Loss of Tail Rotor Drive"....which in most helicopters means an autorotative landing is the preferred technique.
My question still stands....."Can the 350 be flown to a suitable landing site without the Tail Rotor being driven by the MGB?".
Surely there are some 350 pilots out there that can give us the answer or at least quote from the RFM section that discusses that situation.
I cannot believe this is a bit of aeronautical mystery that remains unknown, unexplored, or is taboo to discussion.
Thus, my view is one is confronted with the procedure in the RFM that pertains to "Loss of Tail Rotor Drive"....which in most helicopters means an autorotative landing is the preferred technique.
My question still stands....."Can the 350 be flown to a suitable landing site without the Tail Rotor being driven by the MGB?".
Surely there are some 350 pilots out there that can give us the answer or at least quote from the RFM section that discusses that situation.
I cannot believe this is a bit of aeronautical mystery that remains unknown, unexplored, or is taboo to discussion.
Sas,
Loss of t/r drive is a Land as soon as possible event. Not Land Immediately.
From my RFM (although for a B3):
3.3 Tail-rotor failures
3.3.1 Complete loss of tail rotor effectiveness
3.3.1.3 In Cruise flight:
1. Cyclic: Adjust to set IAS to Vy and control yaw
2. Collective: Reduce to avoid side-slip
Land as soon as possible
Approach and landing
On a suitable area for auto-rotative landing:
1. Twist-grip to IDLE detent
2.Carry out an auto-rotative landing as landing procedure.
Vy= 65kts at sea-level
It's been many years since I last flew a BA so I can't remember exactly, but I can't really think the procedure is much different as the main difference between the two is the engine.
Loss of t/r drive is a Land as soon as possible event. Not Land Immediately.
From my RFM (although for a B3):
3.3 Tail-rotor failures
3.3.1 Complete loss of tail rotor effectiveness
3.3.1.3 In Cruise flight:
1. Cyclic: Adjust to set IAS to Vy and control yaw
2. Collective: Reduce to avoid side-slip
Land as soon as possible
Approach and landing
On a suitable area for auto-rotative landing:
1. Twist-grip to IDLE detent
2.Carry out an auto-rotative landing as landing procedure.
Vy= 65kts at sea-level
It's been many years since I last flew a BA so I can't remember exactly, but I can't really think the procedure is much different as the main difference between the two is the engine.
Last edited by Nubian; 28th Dec 2012 at 13:21. Reason: adding info
Firstly I am sure you can cruise for as long as you like at the power / collective setting that gives you the least side slip . I am guessing around 60 knots straight and level with low torque .
Secondly I have done simulated failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3 and Mil .
Secondly I have done simulated failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3 and Mil .
Minimum side slip is for comfort mostly.....and controllability and structural loading as factors....but speed can vary if needed. Most of us are uncomfortable if side slip goes beyond what we normally experience in our day to day operations despite the aircraft being quite safe at large angles of slide slip.
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nigelh, this makes sense and is similar to what african eagle wrote - so why is the FM recommending a steep approach and to power off the engine before landing?
Does anyone know the different t/r fail procedure on the B3 and is this due to the FADEC?
Does anyone know the different t/r fail procedure on the B3 and is this due to the FADEC?
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Can't you guys stopping speculating on the unknown or shall we remove the
first 'p' of PPRuNe?
Not posting often here, but really tired of reading
post from self-called professionals...
Keep the rumour mill turning, but for
god sake stop the speculation going a one way strret when we all know that most
of incident/accident are happening when more than one hole of the swiss cheese
align...
Good day
Kami
And Shawn never said that hyd were the cause of this accident, but rather an issue with the 350, especially in cold weather.
It killed a very skilled pilot in Canada in one particular incident that I am aware of.
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Firstly I am sure you can cruise for as long as you like at the power /
collective setting that gives you the least side slip . I am guessing around 60
knots straight and level with low torque .
Secondly I have done simulated
failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off
doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push
some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side
you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab
for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it
back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3
and Mil .
collective setting that gives you the least side slip . I am guessing around 60
knots straight and level with low torque .
Secondly I have done simulated
failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off
doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push
some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side
you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab
for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it
back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3
and Mil .
SAS, I do not have first person experience but have been told that a 350 was relatively flyable w/o t/r drive. As well, a friend of mine had a net take his out and landed in a cut block w/o additional damage.
From a theory perspective, on every sim session I attend, someone asks if continued flight is possible w/o t/r drive and invariably the technician explain that no manufacturer has data on it and they make a series of assumptions to program the model. Not something that can be simulated in a real a/c unless you are willing to put a hand grenade in the tail boom.
Sorry , I don't believe the t/r does continue to spin and create thrust . Also it would actually be quite easy to put a t/r on a rig and blow wind over it etc to prove . Lets just accept you can fly without it !!
I am happy to demonstrate if someone has a 350 they want to risk .... I would want a runway to land on however !!
There are also incidents where people have flown after losing t/r drive .
I am happy to demonstrate if someone has a 350 they want to risk .... I would want a runway to land on however !!
There are also incidents where people have flown after losing t/r drive .
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I should have explained better. I agree, without drive it would be stopped. I was talking about using neutral pitch as a simulation of loss of drive being inaccurate.
I'm fully aware of the gasp reflex that occurs in cold water,
but still surprised that, having cleared the cabin, they were found just 50 ft from the aircraft
Mickjoebill
but still surprised that, having cleared the cabin, they were found just 50 ft from the aircraft
Mickjoebill
drop the passnegers before ditching?
I once (and never again!) was in the rear seat of a media chopper that crossed a large body of European water, without raft, immersion suits or floats for a 20 min trip in summer.
The pilot discussed the emergency procedure of a controlled ditching where I was to jump out at say 20 feet and he would fly further on and then ditch. A reasonable option given the possibility of becomming tangled in video cables in the cabin. A couple of cameramen have become tangled in cables and kit and unable to make an exit when other occupants survived a ditching.
Maybe we'll never know if this crew didn't exit the cabin until it was inverted deep under water and they were already half drowned. Is the concept of jettisoning a passenger before settling in the water a good idea if there is no raft on board? especially if the cabin has (deriggable) monitors and other contraptions onboard?
Mickjoebill
The pilot discussed the emergency procedure of a controlled ditching where I was to jump out at say 20 feet and he would fly further on and then ditch. A reasonable option given the possibility of becomming tangled in video cables in the cabin. A couple of cameramen have become tangled in cables and kit and unable to make an exit when other occupants survived a ditching.
Maybe we'll never know if this crew didn't exit the cabin until it was inverted deep under water and they were already half drowned. Is the concept of jettisoning a passenger before settling in the water a good idea if there is no raft on board? especially if the cabin has (deriggable) monitors and other contraptions onboard?
Mickjoebill
Makes sense to me.
I seem to remember the controlled ditching brief we used in Hueys was that we'd come to the low hover, let everyone but the captain jump out, who would then move a reasonable distance away, turn the force trim on and try to get it so the aircraft would move away to the left as he jumped out the other way.
Something like that, unless it's brain cells I've killed in the meantime, which is a good possibility.
I seem to remember the controlled ditching brief we used in Hueys was that we'd come to the low hover, let everyone but the captain jump out, who would then move a reasonable distance away, turn the force trim on and try to get it so the aircraft would move away to the left as he jumped out the other way.
Something like that, unless it's brain cells I've killed in the meantime, which is a good possibility.
gliding distance of land.....
Do we all remember the TV series Magnum?
From island to island with a standard Hughes 500. No floats, vest,etc!
Millions watched this.
There are things one can do and not do....but you should always have a "way out"!
From island to island with a standard Hughes 500. No floats, vest,etc!
Millions watched this.
There are things one can do and not do....but you should always have a "way out"!
If we have decided the aircraft could have been flown with the Tail Rotor Drive Shaft failed....what else could have put them into the water?
Magnums Helicopter
Yes, also.
But notice they never, as far as I could see, worn vest or had a dingy on board.
"Quote"
The show used several different Hughes 500-series choppers for filming (and a 369D early in the first season), each with a slightly different setup and look. The main differences were with regards to the tail and skids - T-tailed (500D), Y-tailed (500C), high skids, short skids, skids with floats, and gray and tan interiors were all used in various configurations. The T-tailed/short skid setup (the 500D) was by far the most commonly seen in the show.
But notice they never, as far as I could see, worn vest or had a dingy on board.
"Quote"
The show used several different Hughes 500-series choppers for filming (and a 369D early in the first season), each with a slightly different setup and look. The main differences were with regards to the tail and skids - T-tailed (500D), Y-tailed (500C), high skids, short skids, skids with floats, and gray and tan interiors were all used in various configurations. The T-tailed/short skid setup (the 500D) was by far the most commonly seen in the show.
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If we have decided the aircraft could have been flown with the Tail Rotor Drive Shaft failed....what else could have put them into the water?
There's must be many more possibilities:
*MRGB failure
*Contaminated fuel
*Fuel Control Unit / FADEC
and other components.
At the risk of making another mindless comment to join the rest...............
Funny how nobody has made comment on the fact that the aircraft has no tailboom even attached to it.
This is obvious in the photo as it is laying in front of the aircraft.
Funny how nobody has made comment on the fact that the aircraft has no tailboom even attached to it.
This is obvious in the photo as it is laying in front of the aircraft.