Inadvertent IMC question

[Vertical Freedom]

IIMC does not exist

Originally Posted by SASless

VF gets a Gold Star and moves to the front of the Class!

I bet he has found himself parked in the middle of no where....uncomfortable....but safely on the ground wondering what provoked him to make the decision that led to that situation.

Yippeee a Gold Star, thanks SASless 'twas always for pressure to Rescue a Blessed Soul in a Life threatening condition. Ironically I've never had a Rescue call-out in fine weather & Yep I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how often I've parked up on an unscheduled stop-over, but I'm still here, that's the beauty of a Rotorcraft

[r22butters]

Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom

There is no such thing as 'inadvertent IMC' it is & always will be a choice the Pilot makes, albeit a criminal choice if He isn't IFR rated & current, machine IFR, a plan to enter IMC & go to LSA & a clear procedure (legal) to return to VMC After 3 decades of Rotory flying, mostly stooging around ****e weather in eXtreme mountains I've never been IMC. (& never will, not in a VFR machine) Yep push it pretty hard for a Rescue, but always have an exit plan B & never loose visual......it's that simple

Hmm, I think I'm actually going to agree with this one.

[EESDL]

Even for a trained IFR pilot the scan is pretty much AI, AI, AI, AI...... the first thing my QFI told me, part from where’s my wedding tea???

Savoia - as tragic as AJ’s accident was I can’t imagine he’d use any of that ‘fancy nonsense’ if it was fitted :-)

[r22butters]

Originally Posted by chopjock

nelly


I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.

Slowing down as the fog surrounds you, then suddenly the windscreen turns white. You try to keep it stable as the "navigator" next to you looking at his ipad tells you to head "that way a bit", but as you haven't been under the hood in ten years you struggle to keep the nose level.

Then the controls become sluggish and the aircraft begins to shake. Fortunately for your dumb a$$, just as the horn starts to blow, the ground begins to appear, not in front of you, but below, so you dump the collective and lower the nose,...again fortunate enough that you're in a valley so the ground is still slopping away from you giving you the room you need to recover!

Sure you could say that your "descent" got you out of IMC (though I wouldn't call VRS slow and shallow) but in reality it was just dumb a$$ luck you're still alive!

[4468]

Even for a trained IFR pilot the scan is pretty much AI, AI, AI, AI...

I guess you’ve never done UPs where the wings are level, but many other crazy things are occurring? High vertical speeds? High rates of yaw? LOW ROTOR RPM?? 😳

in a helicopter, and particularly at low forward speeds. Attitude is far from all you need to watch.

in a fixed wing, AIRSPEED (largely attitude!) is what keeps you alive. In a helicopter, airspeed (largely attitude!) is mostly irrelevant. It’s RRPM that keeps you alive! Never ever forget that!

Selective Radial Scan is the only mantra that will keep you alive when you have no visual reference! That’s why so many VFR pilots die within 3 minutes of entering cloud. Selective radial scan is extremely vulnerable to lack of sufficient recent practice!!

[MightyGem]

How long can the average VFR rated helicopter pilot keep an unstabilised helicopter upright in IMC without SAS or an autopilot?

For a fixed wing pilot, 178 seconds on average. For an unstabilised helicopter, less I would think.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ds_to_Live.pdf

[SASless]

Then if the poor Sod manages to regain control...then without being prepared or equipped to do so...there is that small issue of making an IFR/IMC transit and approach at some airfield...with not a lot of fuel, no approach plates, and a stress level that would be phenomenal even for a well trained fully able, current, and proficient IFR Pilot.

I flew single pilot on a Bell 412 with a nice Sperry System and that could be a hand full even with everything working and the IMC bit was planned for and filed prior to Takeoff.

Now make t hat IIMC in something like say a Jet Ranger, 350, or 500...with no SAS, Auto-pilot, perhaps not even an ILS capability.....oh my dear!

Add Darkness as a final factor.....and the work load really grows.

All that before things start going really wrong with equipment failures and the like.

Ever try to hold a D sized battery powered torch in your mouth to view the instrument panel?

It makes talking to ATC a bit garbled!

[4468]

Absolutely correct, and precisely why I wrote:

But the truth is, even if a ppl could fly a wings level, speed stable climb after IIMC, they very, very likely couldn’t manage an approach to a suitable airfield. Even if their aircraft was equipped for it! That’s the sad fact!

Of course the same may also be true of many CPL(H)

So don’t go up. Don’t go down. Just accept that if you don’t have the recent skills, the qualifications, the equipment, the icing clearance, the divs, the plates or the fuel. The moment you enter cloud, you will quite likely die within 178 secs. It’s that important never to enter cloud. So as I said, if you ever find yourself flying along in marginal weather. Scud running. The moment you feel that knot in your stomach, just put the thing on the ground while you still can! Because very shortly thereafter, you may lose that option!

[SASless]

That would be a very long couple of minutes....with damn poor quality of life in the last remaining bit of your Life.

Let's think back to a very nice A-109 that smacked into a Crane Jib in downtown London a few years back.

Then we might think of a Chinook up at the Mull of Kintyre.

Or...an Irish SAR 92.

Perhaps we can dredge up a couple of dozen US EMS crashes to leaven the mix and start thinking about this lack of vis and not knowing what is right in front of you thing.

It ain' just the newbie's that get bit by this snake.

Here is some light reading for you....three dead...night flight...EMS...marginal VFR at best....plenty of pressure to fly by Management.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...05FA008&akey=1

[gulliBell]

Being in cloud is not necessarily a 178 second lead time on a death sentence. You can survive even without an attitude reference, if you have a bearing pointer that can point at an (GPS or NDB derived) object in space in-front of you fly towards (or away from) it. Don't change the power, or make only very small adjustments in power, and make very small changes with cyclic. Watch the VSI/ASI, keeping it within a few knots or few hundred FPM of target (BROC speed is good). Granted, if your equipment has a suitable bearing pointer it probably also has an attitude reference. But in any event, it can be done without an AI. If the cloud isn't convective i.e. not turbulent, you can fly like that under complete control, without any gyroscopic instruments. However, and this is the key point, it's no reason to knowingly enter cloud thinking that you can actually do this, I'm talking about inadvertent entry here. The difficult part is safely getting out of the cloud. The way to do that with the best chance of surviving is over water, and descending. If you don't have water below you, you need a lot of luck on your side, a mental picture of the terrain, and obviously some ceiling at the bottom to get visual before hitting something.

This is obviously not something you're likely to pull off successfully without some exposure to IIMC training, which should happen during navigation training phase of the basic pilot course. And at each competency check. This is not theoretical preaching, it does actually work, in practice. It has happened to me, twice before. Through some freaky weather event that totally caught me out, that didn't afford me the turn around or land now options. 11,000' descent in cloud in a VFR 206L. Lucky for me I had some open ocean ahead of me, and a 100' of ceiling and good viz to play with at the bottom, and enough fuel to take my time about it.

[[email protected]]

The British Army have flown the unstabilised Gazelle single pilot in IMC for many years and continue to do so. It's not impossible but you need a good instrument pilot to keep it the right way up.

Without the training I suspect that 178 seconds is very optimistic.

So get trained or stay out of cloud.

[Ascend Charlie]

IIMC, for an untrained pilot, in an aircraft without an AI, is most likely a direct track to the crash site. Vertical.

Years ago I lost a young friend to this. The aircraft had been NVFR, with AI, HSI, ADF, turn needle etc, but the new owner, a non-flying doctor, took it all out to avoid having to service it. He needed to fly from his home to a city hospital. Normal pilot refused the job, left the scene. The junior pilot remaining was unexpectedly put in with a very demanding owner, who wanted to get to his appointments in a city hospital. Weather was helicopter VMC in places, but the cloudbase of 600' wasn't compatible with a pad at 500', surrounded by tall trees. Junior pilot tried several times to track up the valley to the pad, lots of turning around and around and looking for a gap, popped into a cloud, and emerged a few seconds later 90 nose down. Splat. Pressure from a non-flying owner, junior pilot, cockpit gradient too high for his experience levels.

You can always say "He should have refused the job, he should have not gone too close to the hill-filled clouds, he shooda...he shooda.."

[Thomas coupling]

Wow, this old chestnut has popped up again.
The feedback I'm getting though, is that us crusty old timers need to impart some of our wisdom, surely - if we are to make any impression on those up and coming helo pilots on here, who read all of this 'stuff'' but are afraid to chip in for fear of being mocked.
So , if I may, I would like to pass on my advice regarding a relatively common killer when flying helos - IIMC.
There's those who have been there and lived and there are those who have never experienced IIMC.
I am appealing to the latter (because the former have had that experience indelibly ingrained on their brain forever)

For those (NON IR or NON IMC rated pilots out there):

You must be wondering why all this scaremongering when it comes to flying into a little bit of water vapour, yes?
When you lose all external references in a helo, you have to employ a very different skill set. If this skill set has not been shown to you, or the skill set has not been practiced often, then you will not be capable of flying a helicopter in IMC with your existing (VFR) skill set for long because the two (VFR skill set and IMC flight) are incompatible.
For those who have never entered IMC, it is the rough equivalent of driving along a B road over the moors on a moonless night and at a reasonable speed (say 50 -60mph), with little or no ambient light and then your headlights lights go out and your brakes don't work.
{This is the closest analogy I can offer to a helo pilot who doesn't have a parallel experience to fall back on}

So: "assuming I have committed the cardinal sin by entering IIMC" what must I do to save my life (essentially)?
This is the difficult bit, because it might sound relatively straight forward but it is more than a technical guide, your emotions come into play and occasionally they can get the better of you. So you have to FOCUS like you've never focussed before. Physically and mentally. Do not let 'fear' control the helo.

The MAIN AI is your lifeline.
1. Wings level.(As soon and as smoothly as possible).
2. Nose on the horizon.
3. Select 2 to 3 degrees nose up.
4. Select best rate of climb speed for your helo.
5. Regain your composure.
6. Select 10 -15 degrees angle of bank (NO MORE). Attempt a 180 degree turn IF safe to do so (in an attempt to fly back into airspace which presumably might be more conducive to VFR).
7. IF you gain visual then recover visually to land or RTB. If you are still IMC - climb to your MSA for that area.
8. When safe to do so, communicate with anyone (local ATC / Drayton centre, anyone) - and ask for help. IE: Pan Pan x 3.

NOTES:
Use the HUB technique when flying on instruments: Starting with the main AI move out to other instruments but always come back to the main AI:
(a) Main AI (for say 5 seconds) - (wings level, ball in the middle).
Scan briefly out to
(b) ASI (for say 1-2 seconds) - (speed NEVER EVER below 60kts) 60-90 ideal.
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
(c ) ALT (for 1 - 2 seconds) - Ensure you are still climbing or have achieved your MSA.
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
(d) VSI (for 1-2 seconds) - Check level or climbing if needed at best angle of climb
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
REPEAT THIS HUB SCAN WHILST IIMC

You will soon develop a slick and repetitive hub (or wheel) scan starting and ending at the MAIN AI.
ALL control movements must be smooth and gentle. NO excess demands in RoC or Speed.
Speeds below Vmin will cause disorientation as first the ball will slip and then height and speed will deteriorate.
Fly the dot (which is your aircraft) on the main AI bang on the horizon bar or very very slgihtly above the wings level position if you wish to climb.
DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON.
Don't let panic overcome you.

It sounds dramatic - it IS.
AND remember, you are in a helicopter, you can land anywhere at anytime BEFORE you go IIMC. You will never ever be ridiculed or break any rules if you LAND if this is the safest option. Your passengers (if accompanied) or your family (if solo) will be eternally grateful that they have met someone who knows their limits.

Final warning - very very few Non IMC rated or Non IR pilots will survive IIMC - it is almost certainly the death penalty. For those who retain their composure, there is a slither of luck that they might survive the ordeal to fly another day.
AT ALL COSTS - DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN A POSITION WHERE YOU WILL INEVITABLY GO IIMC.

If just one newbie / ab initio / ppl(h)VFR pilot lives because they have heeded this posting - my entire 30 years of flying helos will have been worth it.
TC

[Hughes500]

TC

One for you, almost no one I have tested as recaged or pitch synced ( on an Aspen PFD )the AI before slowing down to do their 180 degree turn. Therefore the AI will give a false reading as to what is actually going

[SASless]

TC....if you had added "and then you run into a patch of dense fog and black ice...." to your analogy....it would be spot on!

For those who have never entered IMC, it is the rough equivalent of driving along a B road over the moors on a moonless night and at a reasonable speed (say 50 -60mph), with little or no ambient light and then your headlights lights go out and your brakes don't work.
{This is the closest analogy I can offer to a helo pilot who doesn't have a parallel experience to fall back on}

Gullibell.....I would accuse you of being an Accessory to Murder should it be determined a Dead Pilot used your advice on IIMC in a Helicopter without an Attitude Indicator as an excuse to find himself involved in an IIMC event.

Technically, perhaps you are correct but the reality is the odds of a newbie having the remotest chance of succeeding in that method is so remote as to be laughable you even suggest it here.

What you need to do is embrace the basic advice being given by the Old Pelicans...."If encountering weather below take off minimums....LAND!".

That one singular method absolutely guarantees survival by preventing an IIMC Event.

Your suggested method is the very last method I would endorse....as without an Attitude Indicator most pilots...even experienced pilots are not going to be able to control the Helicopter.

Example for you.

When assessing a Trainee's Instrument flying ability in the Bell 212/412 and S-76 Simulators, I used to carry out Unusual Attitude Recovery sessions on the first flight to determine what kind of Instrument Scan and Interpretation the Pilot had.

I did that by introducing the session in the same old tired way.... I will drive...you put your head down and shut your eyes...at some point I shall return the Control of the aircraft to you....you acknowledge you have the controls and return us to normal level flight.

Immediately upon the Pilot putting his Head down and closing his eyes....I would set his Attitude Indicator Five Degrees Wing Low to one side or the other.

Then, after a minute of Whoopsie Doodles....I would give him the Controls with the aircraft in a minor nose low or high-wing low attitude, yaw out of trim, and an altered power setting from cruise setting.

How many Pilots you reckon sorted out that their Attitude Indicator was giving bogus info....even in aircraft with Three Attitude Indicators to look at and compare?

A great many...way too many....never figured it out.

So you think not even having an AI...folks in IIMC are going to be able to fly an unstablized helicopter.

Your Bearing Pointer thing.....isn't that called a Mag Compass?

I am thinking your two experiences at this came in the Gulf of Mexico somewhere.

[ShyTorque]

I just checked my oldest RAF logbook (I'm now on logbook Volume 6). Having carried out approximately 40-45 hours total time on helicopters we (as those of us in the RAF's training system) began our instrument flying phase. This was in floppy stick (very floppy) Whirlwind 10 helicopters, so the basics were ingrained at a very early stage. I've held a helicopter instrument rating ever since, now some four decades or so. In the past I've operated a "floppy stick" police helicopter for public transport under IFR and properly IMC (now not allowed in UK), as well as far better equipped, SAR helicopters with full auto-hover, approach and auto-transition to climb modes.

I'd say that any unrated helicopter pilot finding himself in cloud will struggle to remember anything he was told or read about! Even those who have been properly trained need to bear in mind that instrument flying is a very perishable skill - me too!

Even though I now fly a single pilot IFR machine, with a fairly capable autopilot, and routinely fly VFR- IFR- VFR (or remain IFR to land), I do take care to remind myself of that fact.

[SASless]

Shy,

How does the work level and stress level change when your Electronic Co-Pilot decides to go on strike mid-flight and you have to hand pole the old girl?

Ever happen AND you get a change of route, a wind shift alters your planned approach, etc?

Ever simply drop your Pencil just as you are being given a new clearance and it safely lands down in the chin bubble?

Every have the Approach Plate Book fall from your fumbling fingers and land again...safely in the Chin Bubble?

Single Pilot IFR can get interesting

[212man]

Wow, this old chestnut has popped up again.

I'm just waiting for the 'Vortex Ring State' and "Height Velocity curve' threads to start up........

[OvertHawk]

Originally Posted by 212man

I'm just waiting for the 'Vortex Ring State' and "Height Velocity curve' threads to start up........

I'm waiting for Chopjock to suggest Vortext Ring as his preferred safe method for exiting IIMC

[chopjock]

I'm waiting for Chopjock to suggest Vortext Ring as his preferred safe method for exiting IIMC

LOL well the rotor is more stable in autorotation... (Less likely to tumble).