Inadvertent IMC question
Chop jock, I lost a crew on operations abroad who tried to get out of IMC by slowing down and going down. I stood over their coffins as they were loaded to be flown back to the uk. The Inquiry was a nightmare, ripping their actions apart. Please listen, IF it ever happens, don’t try to descend IMC. I’m not after an argument with you, I’ve seen what happens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where it rains a lot .....
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we all agree we don't know what happened ..
but most of us agree - if you do end up 'in it....' going up for a think and ask for help is much better / safer than going down for a look .... every time ......
you might get the brown stuff in your pants .... but so long as you live to tell the tail ...
on your next annual check - get the examiner to simulate it with a cloth sheet see how you get on ?? why not , you might just learn something that one day could just save your life ....
im 15 or 16 years on and still enjoy a few hours out with my initial instructor, just for the jolly ride, and he never stops teaching ....
what would you do or where would you go if it conked now ? etc....
but most of us agree - if you do end up 'in it....' going up for a think and ask for help is much better / safer than going down for a look .... every time ......
you might get the brown stuff in your pants .... but so long as you live to tell the tail ...
on your next annual check - get the examiner to simulate it with a cloth sheet see how you get on ?? why not , you might just learn something that one day could just save your life ....
im 15 or 16 years on and still enjoy a few hours out with my initial instructor, just for the jolly ride, and he never stops teaching ....
what would you do or where would you go if it conked now ? etc....
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chopjock;
After every fatal accident you are on here giving us the benefit of your wisdom. I’m
expecting Pitts Extra at any minute too. Do rotary aviation a favour and keep your theories to yourself. You don’t know enough to know how dangerous your ignorant spoutings can be.
30kt in a descent? Why go so slow as to lose the stability benefits of fin and stabiliser? Why descend onto the unknown? You claim you’ve never done it, were taught not to even get close to IMC, in which case your theories carry even less weight.
Recently a son of a friend was about to do to do something he’d learned from one of your old posts. Luckily he told me before he did it. It wasn’t life threatening, but it was illegal. Lots of PPL’s come on this forum for professional pilots, and are welcome, but sometimes they also use it to find out how to do things, and in this case it was wrong.
I’ve flown IMC in a 332 from the Brent ro Aberdeen with no auto-pilot or stab due to a malfunction. My P2 and I took it in turns, at the end we were knackered, but both felt safe at 2500’ because there was nothing to hit. descend, 30kt IMC? No thanks I’d rather die in bed.
SND
Crab/Paco. CAA Man finally back. I’ll email dates on Monday.
After every fatal accident you are on here giving us the benefit of your wisdom. I’m
expecting Pitts Extra at any minute too. Do rotary aviation a favour and keep your theories to yourself. You don’t know enough to know how dangerous your ignorant spoutings can be.
30kt in a descent? Why go so slow as to lose the stability benefits of fin and stabiliser? Why descend onto the unknown? You claim you’ve never done it, were taught not to even get close to IMC, in which case your theories carry even less weight.
Recently a son of a friend was about to do to do something he’d learned from one of your old posts. Luckily he told me before he did it. It wasn’t life threatening, but it was illegal. Lots of PPL’s come on this forum for professional pilots, and are welcome, but sometimes they also use it to find out how to do things, and in this case it was wrong.
I’ve flown IMC in a 332 from the Brent ro Aberdeen with no auto-pilot or stab due to a malfunction. My P2 and I took it in turns, at the end we were knackered, but both felt safe at 2500’ because there was nothing to hit. descend, 30kt IMC? No thanks I’d rather die in bed.
SND
Crab/Paco. CAA Man finally back. I’ll email dates on Monday.
Last edited by Sir Niall Dementia; 5th Jun 2018 at 09:10. Reason: Punctuation. B#%€dy I Phones!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally agree with SND regarding chopjock’s spoutings! Anyone reading it without knowing any better. Please read the contributions of professionals, not cowboys!
But the truth is, even if a ppl could fly a wings level, speed stable climb after IIMC, they very, very likely couldn’t manage an approach to a suitable airfield. Even if their aircraft was equipped for it! That’s the sad fact!
For most ppls, inadvertent IMC is a one way ticket to nowhere. So please, please, please if ever you feel a knot in your stomach due weather, please just land while you still can!
But the truth is, even if a ppl could fly a wings level, speed stable climb after IIMC, they very, very likely couldn’t manage an approach to a suitable airfield. Even if their aircraft was equipped for it! That’s the sad fact!
For most ppls, inadvertent IMC is a one way ticket to nowhere. So please, please, please if ever you feel a knot in your stomach due weather, please just land while you still can!
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 52
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never heard of a VFR pilot going IMC and surviving. Not real IMC anyway.
For day VFR Pilots I don’t believe in IIMC. They made a decision a long time before to push the limits and go well under viz limits before they ever went IMC, unless they were in clear blue and punched into a cloud full speed.....
just slow down as the viz gets down, and then find somewhere to land while you can. It doesn’t have to be fog all the way to the ground before you decide to land, supposedly you need 500’ before you can start flying so that should be enough clearish sky for even the most incompetent pilot to get a helicopter onto a flat spot to shut down and wait it out.
i will always stay low and slow and in contact with the ground, but not going IMC. When you have to start thinking am I breaking the law, that is when you have to look for a place to land.
For day VFR Pilots I don’t believe in IIMC. They made a decision a long time before to push the limits and go well under viz limits before they ever went IMC, unless they were in clear blue and punched into a cloud full speed.....
just slow down as the viz gets down, and then find somewhere to land while you can. It doesn’t have to be fog all the way to the ground before you decide to land, supposedly you need 500’ before you can start flying so that should be enough clearish sky for even the most incompetent pilot to get a helicopter onto a flat spot to shut down and wait it out.
i will always stay low and slow and in contact with the ground, but not going IMC. When you have to start thinking am I breaking the law, that is when you have to look for a place to land.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They’ve taken all the fun out of the job now. In those days you did a non-precision approach without auto-pilot on base checks, nowadays it’s the one where you prove how clever you are with all the automatics.
Maybe its my age, but I do find myself thinking we had it better and did it better, my grandpa definitely reckoned his generation of pilots were far better than mine!
SND
Maybe its my age, but I do find myself thinking we had it better and did it better, my grandpa definitely reckoned his generation of pilots were far better than mine!
SND
There is no excuse for IIMC....ever. That being flying yourself into IMC conditions (being unable to maintain control of the aircraft by visual contact with external cues) while flying VMC.
That being said and I am not willing to debate that statement....a VFR only Pilot trying to build IMC and IFR Time with no notice....best hope your Life Insurance was paid up prior to flight.....no sense no good coming of your leaving.
A fully current and very proficient IFR Pilot will have problems coping with the event if the aircraft is not properly equipped....again invest in that Life Insurance.
The best and cheapest insurance policy....operating your aircraft in such a manner as you never go IMC in an inadvertent manner...ever.
In your trusty helicopter....use its unique capability to keep you out of trouble...slow down...hover if necessary...and fly at the speed that allows you to avoid ALL hazards.
In the context of this discussion....losing visual reference to the ground is the worst hazard possible.
If you can see and avoid wires, masts, trees, hills and mountains....why would you ever fly in a manner that does not allow for avoiding that really...really...really important hazard...losing sight of the surface?
You do not have to look at a weather forecast....I never had one in Iran, Burkina Faso, Alaska, and quite a few other places...to tell you how to fly once you are airborne.
The weather forecast can make hazard avoidance easy....marginal weather and forecast to get worse....weather below minimums....makes it simple....Coffee time.
Once you get airborne...if the weather deteriorates to below minimums for Take Off....HELLO! Land! Coffee time!
There is nothing we do in helicopter aviation that cannot wait (with the exception of perhaps SAR but even SAR Units have Minimums too!).
Why do you continue to fly in weather that if you knew existed along your route....you would not launch into?
My Hands are not clean....they are indelibly stained with guilt for having done exactly what I advocate against here.
I knew my limits and imposed the limitations that afforded me the ability to know when to call it quits before something bad happened.
The worst it got on occasions was not being able to get over a 35 foot high set of electric lines, or being unable to see my next Hover Spot....all of a hundred yards away....or relying upon a single wooden survey stake with some orange flagging as my sole visual reference atop a pinnacle/ridge landing site in a snow squall.
The Pinnacle thing scared me....for if that shaky wooden stake had departed its location...I would have departed into white out conditions in a VFR only MD 500.
The other life altering fright....was flying off the North Rim of the Grand Canyon in that same MD 500 (even the Airspeed Indicator had gone InOp....in very hazy conditions while holding up a big handful of VFR Map trying to figure out just where this Grand Canyon thing was....as I flew off the edge of the mile deep abyss...with only a few hundred feet of Vis.
There were some other frights including going IIMC in Rain while dropping water on an Ammo Bunker Storage Area Fire and winding up in the middle of a Monsoon Season Thunder Storm.
I survived....I went through some Guardian Angels who quit over not receiving Hazardous Duty Pay for their Duty Assignment.
Others of my Peers have not been so fortunate....I have attended far too many Funerals of Good Guys who were not as lucky.
That being said and I am not willing to debate that statement....a VFR only Pilot trying to build IMC and IFR Time with no notice....best hope your Life Insurance was paid up prior to flight.....no sense no good coming of your leaving.
A fully current and very proficient IFR Pilot will have problems coping with the event if the aircraft is not properly equipped....again invest in that Life Insurance.
The best and cheapest insurance policy....operating your aircraft in such a manner as you never go IMC in an inadvertent manner...ever.
In your trusty helicopter....use its unique capability to keep you out of trouble...slow down...hover if necessary...and fly at the speed that allows you to avoid ALL hazards.
In the context of this discussion....losing visual reference to the ground is the worst hazard possible.
If you can see and avoid wires, masts, trees, hills and mountains....why would you ever fly in a manner that does not allow for avoiding that really...really...really important hazard...losing sight of the surface?
You do not have to look at a weather forecast....I never had one in Iran, Burkina Faso, Alaska, and quite a few other places...to tell you how to fly once you are airborne.
The weather forecast can make hazard avoidance easy....marginal weather and forecast to get worse....weather below minimums....makes it simple....Coffee time.
Once you get airborne...if the weather deteriorates to below minimums for Take Off....HELLO! Land! Coffee time!
There is nothing we do in helicopter aviation that cannot wait (with the exception of perhaps SAR but even SAR Units have Minimums too!).
Why do you continue to fly in weather that if you knew existed along your route....you would not launch into?
My Hands are not clean....they are indelibly stained with guilt for having done exactly what I advocate against here.
I knew my limits and imposed the limitations that afforded me the ability to know when to call it quits before something bad happened.
The worst it got on occasions was not being able to get over a 35 foot high set of electric lines, or being unable to see my next Hover Spot....all of a hundred yards away....or relying upon a single wooden survey stake with some orange flagging as my sole visual reference atop a pinnacle/ridge landing site in a snow squall.
The Pinnacle thing scared me....for if that shaky wooden stake had departed its location...I would have departed into white out conditions in a VFR only MD 500.
The other life altering fright....was flying off the North Rim of the Grand Canyon in that same MD 500 (even the Airspeed Indicator had gone InOp....in very hazy conditions while holding up a big handful of VFR Map trying to figure out just where this Grand Canyon thing was....as I flew off the edge of the mile deep abyss...with only a few hundred feet of Vis.
There were some other frights including going IIMC in Rain while dropping water on an Ammo Bunker Storage Area Fire and winding up in the middle of a Monsoon Season Thunder Storm.
I survived....I went through some Guardian Angels who quit over not receiving Hazardous Duty Pay for their Duty Assignment.
Others of my Peers have not been so fortunate....I have attended far too many Funerals of Good Guys who were not as lucky.
Just to make life interesting for the ppl ( bearing in mind that a PPLH in EASA land has to demonstrate a 180 degree turn under " the hood" plus or minus 200 ft ) what would you suggest in this scenario. PPL Flying at 2000 ft agl in the cruise ppl looks down to check chart / change radio freq etc etc, looks up and is now IIMC as he has flown up into the layer of cloud does he
1. make a 180 degree turn ? This doesnt bring him out of the layer of cloud as he hasnt descended
2. Make a climb to avoid hitting anything and contact ATC for help ?
3. Make a shallow descent holding winds level with gentle fwd cylic as he knows he is 2000 ft of airspace under neath him ?
4. Makes a rapid descent using loads of collective down as per a normal descent ?
5. Do something else
Not meant to be a trick here just curious what you would advise a ppl to do
1. make a 180 degree turn ? This doesnt bring him out of the layer of cloud as he hasnt descended
2. Make a climb to avoid hitting anything and contact ATC for help ?
3. Make a shallow descent holding winds level with gentle fwd cylic as he knows he is 2000 ft of airspace under neath him ?
4. Makes a rapid descent using loads of collective down as per a normal descent ?
5. Do something else
Not meant to be a trick here just curious what you would advise a ppl to do
There is no excuse for IIMC....ever.
I was working on a massive bushfire in the Blue Mountains, when I was tasked to go from the south side of the fire to the north side. The only way in all that smoke was to follow the vertical sandstone cliffs (about 3500' here, tops in smoke) around the edges of the smoke-filled valley. I was sneaking along at about 40kt with very limited vis, using the cliffs outside my window for reference, when my windscreen was filled with a SeaKing doing the same thing in the opposite direction. He was marginally closer to the cliffs than I was, so the only thing to do was a snap turn to the left, out into the smoke. Dunno if he saw me or not.
Instant IMC. Onto the clocks, get power up to max, accelerate to 60kt and climb at the speed of stink, highest hill around 4000' but unknown position (before the days of moving maps.) All the smoke rising had turned into a big cumulus, so it was well over 6000' when I popped out into clear air.
Luckily I had a lot of instrument experience, and the aircraft was NVFR equipped, so I was relatively comfortable in the soup.
But I reckon that in this case, I had an excuse.
Hughes - for that particular situation, 2000'agl gives far more options than being at low level.
The 180 turn followed by a descent to not below 1000' agl would seem the logical solution - just depends on whether you are 2000 agl in a big valley with high ground either side of you!
As others have stated, there is no 'one-size-fits-all' solution as there are too many vaiables with the pilot experience, aircraft fit and actual conditions/terrain to consider.
Just make a plan, know your limits and stick to them.
The 180 turn followed by a descent to not below 1000' agl would seem the logical solution - just depends on whether you are 2000 agl in a big valley with high ground either side of you!
As others have stated, there is no 'one-size-fits-all' solution as there are too many vaiables with the pilot experience, aircraft fit and actual conditions/terrain to consider.
Just make a plan, know your limits and stick to them.
PPL Flying at 2000 ft agl in the cruise ppl looks down to check chart / change radio freq etc etc, looks up and is now IIMC as he has flown up into the layer of cloud
Fly halfway between the base and the surface - when the surface gets too close and you cant go back land on it and live.
The fallacy of giving a student 5 hours under the hood is delusional and I would like to meet the idiots that came up with that one. Never understood it.
Treat cloud/fog the same as rock because invariably that is what is inside it by the time you have got this far. Where is the procedure for doing 180 after you have hit a rock?
Anyone reading this thread would be wise to heed the advice of some of the more experienced folks on here, Jellycopter, Crab, Paco, SND,Sasless to name but a few.
Nothing I say here is in reference to the sad events in Yorkshire that cost a pilot his life, but in relation to the comments about IIMC flight.
IIMC kills, tried it once, nearly 20 years ago, did as I had been trained to do (180 degree turn) and it nearly killed me, Hughes500’s point about where it happens being the big issue, a 180 turn on instruments at low level trying to cross a ridge, nearly had me coming together with a 2-300ft tall antenna which I knew was there, but once in cloud didn’t know precisely where.....
You cannot crash into the rule book, you may get prosecuted for climbing, but even that is doubtful, it would be a brave person who would try to send that message to the aviation community (certainly in the UK).
ChopJock, I sometimes admire your ability to incite debate on the forum, but on occasion it is better to listen than offer under informed / experienced opinion, perhaps now is one of those times, who knows? Not a personal dig, take it for what it is.
As for the go down slow down concept once low level IMC , shortly after the very sad Brazilian wedding IMC video became public and lots of us had watched it, I became intrigued as to the bank angle and string combination very near the end. About two weeks later I put a good friend of mine in the sim (experienced VFR guy) and set up him for the same kind of scenario, I was amazed that his company had adopted a wings level, slow down go down approach to IIMC at low level, so I let it develop. Most of us steer with our feet at low speed, but for various sensible reasons attitude IF is taught at a reasonable rate of knots, feet being used for balance, once he got down below about 30kts it all fell apart very quickly and trying to stop a heading change with bank stopped working and we ended looking at the same picture in the Brazil video, heavily banked , no indicated airspeed , turning , not unexpectedly and not too soon after we hit the ground. Yes it’s just a sim, but the method did not work and we had no wires hedges, chimneys to contend with.
5 hours IF training in the PPL syllabus is often taught by instructors with no IF experience (been there done that, no disrespect meant), covering screens makes it more realistic, but its not like being in cloud, with the turbulence and often natural desire for the helicopter to climb.
Given a servicable helicopter that is the right way up, with servicable instruments, appropriate training and currency, yes low speed IF is possible, the UK military (so I am told) teach towering IF departures, and their method saved my skin once when I had windows freeze over at lowish level departing a well known and well surrounded helicopter landing site in Cornwall one clear winters morning, indeed had Jellycopter and I not discussed the technique some time the previous year I may well have made a smoking hole in the ground....
Good advice above about treating cloud like rock, simple and to the point.
If you are not qualified, current or you don’t have a helicopter certified for IFR flight, please for the sake of your loved ones STAY OUT OF CLOUD.
Nothing I say here is in reference to the sad events in Yorkshire that cost a pilot his life, but in relation to the comments about IIMC flight.
IIMC kills, tried it once, nearly 20 years ago, did as I had been trained to do (180 degree turn) and it nearly killed me, Hughes500’s point about where it happens being the big issue, a 180 turn on instruments at low level trying to cross a ridge, nearly had me coming together with a 2-300ft tall antenna which I knew was there, but once in cloud didn’t know precisely where.....
You cannot crash into the rule book, you may get prosecuted for climbing, but even that is doubtful, it would be a brave person who would try to send that message to the aviation community (certainly in the UK).
ChopJock, I sometimes admire your ability to incite debate on the forum, but on occasion it is better to listen than offer under informed / experienced opinion, perhaps now is one of those times, who knows? Not a personal dig, take it for what it is.
As for the go down slow down concept once low level IMC , shortly after the very sad Brazilian wedding IMC video became public and lots of us had watched it, I became intrigued as to the bank angle and string combination very near the end. About two weeks later I put a good friend of mine in the sim (experienced VFR guy) and set up him for the same kind of scenario, I was amazed that his company had adopted a wings level, slow down go down approach to IIMC at low level, so I let it develop. Most of us steer with our feet at low speed, but for various sensible reasons attitude IF is taught at a reasonable rate of knots, feet being used for balance, once he got down below about 30kts it all fell apart very quickly and trying to stop a heading change with bank stopped working and we ended looking at the same picture in the Brazil video, heavily banked , no indicated airspeed , turning , not unexpectedly and not too soon after we hit the ground. Yes it’s just a sim, but the method did not work and we had no wires hedges, chimneys to contend with.
5 hours IF training in the PPL syllabus is often taught by instructors with no IF experience (been there done that, no disrespect meant), covering screens makes it more realistic, but its not like being in cloud, with the turbulence and often natural desire for the helicopter to climb.
Given a servicable helicopter that is the right way up, with servicable instruments, appropriate training and currency, yes low speed IF is possible, the UK military (so I am told) teach towering IF departures, and their method saved my skin once when I had windows freeze over at lowish level departing a well known and well surrounded helicopter landing site in Cornwall one clear winters morning, indeed had Jellycopter and I not discussed the technique some time the previous year I may well have made a smoking hole in the ground....
Good advice above about treating cloud like rock, simple and to the point.
If you are not qualified, current or you don’t have a helicopter certified for IFR flight, please for the sake of your loved ones STAY OUT OF CLOUD.
I think it would be a good move to split this thread, for the sake of keeping it clean and also out of respect for the tragedy that triggered this discussion.
Reading this thread I kept getting flashbacks of the video of Mikhail Farikh covering up one instrument after the other in IMC in an R44. The guy that died in IMC CFIT in 2016, two years after posting that video.
One thought from my side: I'm suprised that nobody has yet mentioned things like EIR, CbIR and EASA vs FAA politics on SE-IFR.
Reading this thread I kept getting flashbacks of the video of Mikhail Farikh covering up one instrument after the other in IMC in an R44. The guy that died in IMC CFIT in 2016, two years after posting that video.
One thought from my side: I'm suprised that nobody has yet mentioned things like EIR, CbIR and EASA vs FAA politics on SE-IFR.
There is no such thing as 'inadvertent IMC' it is & always will be a choice the Pilot makes, albeit a criminal choice if He isn't IFR rated & current, machine IFR, a plan to enter IMC & go to LSA & a clear procedure (legal) to return to VMC 
After 3 decades of Rotory flying, mostly stooging around ****e weather in eXtreme mountains I've never been IMC. (& never will, not in a VFR machine) 
Yep push it pretty hard for a Rescue, but always have an exit plan B & never loose visual......it's that simple 
After 3 decades of Rotory flying, mostly stooging around ****e weather in eXtreme mountains I've never been IMC. (& never will, not in a VFR machine) Yep push it pretty hard for a Rescue, but always have an exit plan B & never loose visual......it's that simple
VF gets a Gold Star and moves to the front of the Class!
I bet he has found himself parked in the middle of no where....uncomfortable....but safely on the ground wondering what provoked him to make the decision that led to that situation.
I bet he has found himself parked in the middle of no where....uncomfortable....but safely on the ground wondering what provoked him to make the decision that led to that situation.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paco
To be pedantic the min IMC speed is 40kts with other limits as table below:-
IMC flight
The approved IMC envelope is shown at Figure 1
At least one lane of each autopilot channel must be operative.
Minimum airspeed 40 knots (IAS Hold engaged)
Minimum airspeed VY (normal operation)
Maximum airspeed VNE.
The only a/c I have flown that you could climb vertically IMC ( if within HOGE ) is the Seaking which had a doppler meter giving groundspeed in any direction up to 40kts. I only every used it once to climb IMC and that was in the Cairngorms (Scotland) where I had to do an IMC climb from amongst the mountains on a SAR callout. The idea was to fly at min IMC speed commensurate with keeping the doppler meter as near zero as possible, accelerating once past MSA.
I am sure that anybody who tried to hover IMC with no doppler meter would soon meet their maker!
HF
To be pedantic the min IMC speed is 40kts with other limits as table below:-
IMC flight
The approved IMC envelope is shown at Figure 1
At least one lane of each autopilot channel must be operative.
Minimum airspeed 40 knots (IAS Hold engaged)
Minimum airspeed VY (normal operation)
Maximum airspeed VNE.
The only a/c I have flown that you could climb vertically IMC ( if within HOGE ) is the Seaking which had a doppler meter giving groundspeed in any direction up to 40kts. I only every used it once to climb IMC and that was in the Cairngorms (Scotland) where I had to do an IMC climb from amongst the mountains on a SAR callout. The idea was to fly at min IMC speed commensurate with keeping the doppler meter as near zero as possible, accelerating once past MSA.
I am sure that anybody who tried to hover IMC with no doppler meter would soon meet their maker!
HF
We did practice it regularly though, so it wasn't anything spectacular. Great machine.
The best advice is above. Use the Mr. Miyagi method:
"Best defence, no be there!"
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Ripon, UK
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am reading with interest, being at the very beginning of flight training! I'd rather learn from previous events than to even think 'I can do it better than they did'...the outcome of that wouldn't be favourable for my existence.