Inadvertent IMC question
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crab
Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...
.If you are already so low and slow, you should have turned back or landed long before.
You are kidding yourself if you think you can maintain adequate control in low speed IMC flight and still have the awareness to avoid wires and other obstacles that might suddenly appear out of the murk.
You are kidding yourself if you think you can maintain adequate control in low speed IMC flight and still have the awareness to avoid wires and other obstacles that might suddenly appear out of the murk.
For any low-times reading this, please stay out of cloud - full stop! In my opinion, the annual foggles exercise is nonsense - IMC just is not an option. When faced with deteriorating weather, forget the 500ft rule; stay VMC below. If you go IIMC you're signing your own death warrant. Remember, you can't crash into the rule book!
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I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.
People think they can tool along in a helicopter in weather that is marginal. ‘Knowing’ that without adequate instrument skills and equipment, they can just go down and slow down to remain out of cloud. ‘Hoping’ that the weather will miraculously improve!
I have absolutely no idea what happened in the accident being discussed here, but anyone thinking they can follow chopjock’s advice. Please. Please. Please don’t. The moment the weather gets remotely marginal. Just find somewhere safe, put the thing on the deck, and shut down.
The only other safe alternative, if you have the equipment on board AND a suitable icing clearance, and the recent skills, is to climb to MSA, and fly an instrument recovery to a suitable airfield. Oh, and if you have any idea you may have to resort to this method, you really should include it in your pre-flight planning. MSAs, radio frequencies, (or guard!) fuel for diversion to a second alternate, and suitable approach minima. Very few private helicopter/pilot combos will have this option. If that’s the case, just put it on the deck, and walk away!
Take either of those two options, or you are simply an accident waiting to happen.
Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...
Unskilled, un-current, un-proficient, un-prepared Pilots in under-equipped helicopters is never a situation that turns out for the good when it comes to IIMC flight.
The key is setting safe limits and sticking to them.
A nice Pub Lunch and a coffee while you wait for the weather to improve beats pushing up Daisy Roots by far.
I used to be a very dedicated Scud Runner but never went IIMC....but I met some very nice people in the oddest of places.
I set limits to what weather I would fly in...and always had the mindset that I would never fly faster than I could see-avoid-land....safely.
I never did my silliness in the dark.
Always have Taxi Fare in your Flight Case in case you need it.
Last edited by SASless; 1st Jun 2018 at 11:43.
Simplythebeast, et al: please try and stay with it, eh? You are on a rumour network here (the clue is actually in the word Pprune). If we all stayed quiet until the AAIB responded, there would be no PPrune!
The nature of the beast is that we discuss options and assumptions......
Chopjock - you should know better by now. Quite a few newbie's come on here to look and learn. Telling them it's normal to "Scud Run" is not good for them or the fraternity, is it.
Scud running is illegal and will almost certainly lead to IIMC at some stage. And as Crab said - flying lo and slo under clouds is certainly a recipe for diaster.
A shallow descent out of IMC is pure fantasy. To achieve this one has to be able to "FLY" a controlled flight path on instruments to achieve the departure path you require to regain VFR, doesn't it and as Homonculus states - once in cloud and without currency, you are living on borrowed time and will almost certainly lose control of your aircraft, very very quickly - probably as this guy did.
C'mon chopjock polish your act up and act responsibly now
The nature of the beast is that we discuss options and assumptions......
Chopjock - you should know better by now. Quite a few newbie's come on here to look and learn. Telling them it's normal to "Scud Run" is not good for them or the fraternity, is it.
Scud running is illegal and will almost certainly lead to IIMC at some stage. And as Crab said - flying lo and slo under clouds is certainly a recipe for diaster.
A shallow descent out of IMC is pure fantasy. To achieve this one has to be able to "FLY" a controlled flight path on instruments to achieve the departure path you require to regain VFR, doesn't it and as Homonculus states - once in cloud and without currency, you are living on borrowed time and will almost certainly lose control of your aircraft, very very quickly - probably as this guy did.
C'mon chopjock polish your act up and act responsibly now
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Given that the stabilising devices on most light helicopters start kicking in at about 45 kts, and that I can't really gauge distance from the cockpit , if I don't like what I see at 60 knots I prefer to be on the ground....
, if I don't like what I see at 60 knots I prefer to be on the ground....
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While going up is wise from an obstacle point of view, VFR helicopter pilots don't usually fair well in this situation. Logically, said VFR pilot would have most likely had some form of vis before entering the crap.
Obviously if the weather has closed in all around by that point, then go for the known outcome and land in that big ol' field you see below you. If you can't do any of that, then you shouldn't have gotten airborne in the first place.
Just my two cents.
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As for going down: oh dear 
And what is the long term outcome of this presumably ongoing gradual descent into the unknown murk? It just to gently plop onto a soft lawn that just so happens to be at the point where your shallow angled descent path meets the ground? Maybe the lovely person who has seen you coming in has put the kettle on and is fetching you a nice hot coffee as you do your two minute shut down.
And what is the long term outcome of this presumably ongoing gradual descent into the unknown murk? It just to gently plop onto a soft lawn that just so happens to be at the point where your shallow angled descent path meets the ground? Maybe the lovely person who has seen you coming in has put the kettle on and is fetching you a nice hot coffee as you do your two minute shut down.
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within my first 25 hrs of training - my instructor had a blanket over my head taped to the cockpit windows and steam gauges of the 22 & 44 ....of course before anyone says it - he was outside the blanket looking where we were going .....
no cheating now like you can with the foggles... i remember him saying ....
i know no-one wants to admit on here but again bet you have all been a tad worried and in the crap at some point in your heli days ...
no cheating now like you can with the foggles... i remember him saying ....
i know no-one wants to admit on here but again bet you have all been a tad worried and in the crap at some point in your heli days ...
I suppose we need to dredge up prior discussions here on this topic of IIMC and what works when you are silly enough to commit that Mortal Sin.
180 Turns sound nice in theory....but the last thing you need to do is throw in a bank and turn immediately after going IIMC....granted that and other gyrations will occur quite naturally all on their own and not due to anything the Pilot can do to prevent them due to the "Inadvertent" entry.
As there are as many variables as there are pilots and circumstances surrounding the IIMC Event....one hard fast rule shall not work in every instance.
One of the Tricks of Old Aged Offshore Pilots is a "Find the Surface" evolution that involves Minimum IMC Airspeed possible...into Wind....and a very slow ROD...into a known area clear of obstacles...until you see something usable to control the attitude of the aircraft.....and done only as the very last resort prior to running out of fuel.
Soft ditchings beats heck out of an autorotative descent on Instruments without knowing where the surface really is.
So....yes a slow descent might be the thing....if planned and well thought out....but never done on the spur of the moment out of immediate necessity.
180 Turns sound nice in theory....but the last thing you need to do is throw in a bank and turn immediately after going IIMC....granted that and other gyrations will occur quite naturally all on their own and not due to anything the Pilot can do to prevent them due to the "Inadvertent" entry.
As there are as many variables as there are pilots and circumstances surrounding the IIMC Event....one hard fast rule shall not work in every instance.
One of the Tricks of Old Aged Offshore Pilots is a "Find the Surface" evolution that involves Minimum IMC Airspeed possible...into Wind....and a very slow ROD...into a known area clear of obstacles...until you see something usable to control the attitude of the aircraft.....and done only as the very last resort prior to running out of fuel.
Soft ditchings beats heck out of an autorotative descent on Instruments without knowing where the surface really is.
So....yes a slow descent might be the thing....if planned and well thought out....but never done on the spur of the moment out of immediate necessity.
Nelly,
After 35 years flying, mostly in the military with an IR, and the vast majority in helicopters, I have never been IIMC! I've had a few unplanned excursions into IMC as a conscious decision in deteriorating conditions. But never inadvertently. The age old adage remains valid : Go down, slow down, turn round, land on.
After 35 years flying, mostly in the military with an IR, and the vast majority in helicopters, I have never been IIMC! I've had a few unplanned excursions into IMC as a conscious decision in deteriorating conditions. But never inadvertently. The age old adage remains valid : Go down, slow down, turn round, land on.
Hmmm - there are, as in most things, exceptions. Professional S&R pilot plus three crew, hover-taxying up a valley in the murk, enters IMC and decides to climb out. Good move?? Well, actually no!! Climbed into the base of a Cb and they were spat out of the side at 12,000' ... as a kit of parts! 4 fatals, friends amongst them. Probably the one exception to prove the rule but, sh1t happens ... especially in helos.
chopjock, I see from your profile that you own and operate a H500 and hold a PPL. I beg of you, please, please take heed of the advice given by the old heads here, SASless, Crab and Thomas Coupling. I'm betting you have no IF experience to speak of, scud running and driving your 500 into a cloud is only going to have one outcome, the exact same as prompted this thread. Get home'itis is a killer, park it and get the thermos and sandwiches out, or take a cab. Your wife/partner and kids will thank you for it.
If you always keep forward viz of less than the distance to stop ....bit like driving .. you can always stop and turn around or land . It’s worked for me for many years and I have never had to resort to instruments. Landing should always be an option !
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If you have the IF skills to keep descending and slow down and still keep it all upright then you also have the skills to climb and get away from the terrain and then radio a ATC falcility and get some help from them to get you safely back on the ground.
To keep descending and slowing down in IIMC is a recipe for disaster
Inadvertent IMC really focuses the mind, it takes alot of experience to overcome. It usually comes with disorientation and a loss of situational awareness. Low, slow and decending out of it smells of disaster, once it's happened IMO the only thing to do is climb to MEA and sort your $41t out.
Disclaimer: I'm talking about inadvertant IMC not this case in particular as I do not know the cause of events.
Disclaimer: I'm talking about inadvertant IMC not this case in particular as I do not know the cause of events.
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fadec
No one told me what to do if IIMC. I was told not to go there! But "IF" it were to happen I would expect to crash and probably die. Therefore in my inexperienced opinion I would not know what to do and would want to try and lessen the impending impact by reducing my speed and inducing a controlled shallow ROD, attempt to get in to wind and look for visual references whilst trying not to panic...
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.
Im not sure I agree with you chop or more likely the person who told you this is what to do.
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.
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Chop jock, I lost a crew on operations abroad who tried to get out of IMC by slowing down and going down. I stood over their coffins as they were loaded to be flown back to the uk. The Inquiry was a nightmare, ripping their actions apart. Please listen, IF it ever happens, don’t try to descend IMC. I’m not after an argument with you, I’ve seen what happens
fadec
No one told me what to do if IIMC. I was told not to go there! But "IF" it were to happen I would expect to crash and probably die. Therefore in my inexperienced opinion I would not know what to do and would want to try and lessen the impending impact by reducing my speed and inducing a controlled shallow ROD, attempt to get in to wind and look for visual references whilst trying not to panic...
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.
No one told me what to do if IIMC. I was told not to go there! But "IF" it were to happen I would expect to crash and probably die. Therefore in my inexperienced opinion I would not know what to do and would want to try and lessen the impending impact by reducing my speed and inducing a controlled shallow ROD, attempt to get in to wind and look for visual references whilst trying not to panic...
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.