Shared Ownership - Help!!
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Some very interesting and useful views. If anyone is interested in a share in an Enstrom 480 based at Manchester Barton, please drop me a pm. I have done some fantastic flying in it from Snowdonia to Scotland but it would be nice to have some company to fly with and share some of the costs.
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Nigel
It's like anything that you own a share in, if you manage to sell the share before the annual then you simply transfer the liability of any cash calls to the new owner. If you don't sell it, then it's your responsibility to pay your share of the bill.
I guess we'd all like the opportunity of having a fleet of aircraft at our disposal (actually I do ! I'm fortunate enough to have the keys to 4 helicopters in my car 2 Robinson R44's, an Enstrom 480 and a Jet Ranger, and I have access to a 500 too) but the reality is that it's very unlikely a group similar to the one you describe will ever be formed.
My access to aircraft is very healthy because at City Heliport where I am based the various owners are all friendly with each other and we spend time ferrying each other to maintenance etc . I've let my friends use my machine for type ratings and LPC's etc and in return, I get access to their machines too. This is traditionally done on a "no money is exchanged" basis too. However, I will admit its a very, very unique situation but has always worked very very well.
Joel
It's like anything that you own a share in, if you manage to sell the share before the annual then you simply transfer the liability of any cash calls to the new owner. If you don't sell it, then it's your responsibility to pay your share of the bill.
I guess we'd all like the opportunity of having a fleet of aircraft at our disposal (actually I do ! I'm fortunate enough to have the keys to 4 helicopters in my car 2 Robinson R44's, an Enstrom 480 and a Jet Ranger, and I have access to a 500 too) but the reality is that it's very unlikely a group similar to the one you describe will ever be formed.
My access to aircraft is very healthy because at City Heliport where I am based the various owners are all friendly with each other and we spend time ferrying each other to maintenance etc . I've let my friends use my machine for type ratings and LPC's etc and in return, I get access to their machines too. This is traditionally done on a "no money is exchanged" basis too. However, I will admit its a very, very unique situation but has always worked very very well.
Joel
Last edited by JTobias; 3rd Nov 2012 at 11:41.
So that will be 2 helicopters then Joel ( I don't count the Robbos !!)
I only have 3 to call on , MD500E , A109 and Dauphin. My favourite being the 500
Ps. If you are not buying and selling shares in the machine I still don't understand what is to stop you just walking away if a monster bill turns up !!
( I don't count the Robbos !!)I only have 3 to call on , MD500E , A109 and Dauphin. My favourite being the 500
Ps. If you are not buying and selling shares in the machine I still don't understand what is to stop you just walking away if a monster bill turns up !!
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Id love to be part of a syndicate one day couple of questions.
Does the syndicate buy the aircraft initially?? £400 a month sounds great for fixed costs etc but who buys the aircraft in the first place?? Is a contingency built in for depreciation?? And i agree what is to stop say half the syndicate bombing out just before a major unforeseen maintenance issue??
The key to this must be the integrity of the stake holders.
Does the syndicate buy the aircraft initially?? £400 a month sounds great for fixed costs etc but who buys the aircraft in the first place?? Is a contingency built in for depreciation?? And i agree what is to stop say half the syndicate bombing out just before a major unforeseen maintenance issue??
The key to this must be the integrity of the stake holders.
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i agree what is to stop say half the syndicate bombing out just before a major unforeseen maintenance issue??
I am in a great three way share fixed wing that has worked perfectly for 5 years on a very simple agreement, in reality we should be more formal but it does come down to who you partner with.
I have been looking for some years for a Helicopter share in Kent but very few and far between.
Honour and integrity
That will get you burnt... In my experiences, there is a lot of talk about it but it often dissappears at the most convenient times for the other party...
So, like you say....
a watertight contract
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Hi All,
In one hand I agree that a water tight contract is the answer, but I have to say that when I bought my very first share in an aircraft it was with 4 people that I had never met before. There were no contracts, no written rules, no nothing and for the whole time I was in the group, there was never a wrong word between any of us. Two of those original shareholders are still very close friends to this day (not that I've fallen out with the other two).
I would say that if a shareholder reneged on their part of their obligations, then you should suspend their access to the aircraft until such a time as they have brought their arrears up to date and/or dispose of their share and deduct the arrears from the sale price. This would obviously be an extreme scenario, but any rules you have should provide for it.
Joel
In one hand I agree that a water tight contract is the answer, but I have to say that when I bought my very first share in an aircraft it was with 4 people that I had never met before. There were no contracts, no written rules, no nothing and for the whole time I was in the group, there was never a wrong word between any of us. Two of those original shareholders are still very close friends to this day (not that I've fallen out with the other two).
I would say that if a shareholder reneged on their part of their obligations, then you should suspend their access to the aircraft until such a time as they have brought their arrears up to date and/or dispose of their share and deduct the arrears from the sale price. This would obviously be an extreme scenario, but any rules you have should provide for it.
Joel
Last edited by JTobias; 5th Nov 2012 at 09:57.
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I think there needs to be a balance struck between honour, understanding but with some basic Heads of Terms on such elements as usage, cost split etc. Seeking redress via a legal route is always painful to all parties (not to mention expensive), but in my experience you would need a Chinook to lift a contract that covered every eventuality!!
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Please don't let enthusiasm and emotion get in front of your business head.
What happens if you have just paid out for your share of a big service and then the true legal owner just flys off with the machine ?
Or what if you fly very little one quarter and then there is major works to be done.
You really must get a legal document in place. Who is the legal owner ? If you set up a company to do this then who are the directors and shareholders ? What happens if you want out ? How are voting right split ?
The list goes on but, in the current economic climate when people may appear to be flash with cash one moment but bust the next, I would prefer to take the time to get something more formal than a handshake in place.
Yes, I have been there. I let emotion run ahead and did not have a firm contract. All worked out just fine in the end as I was dealing with decent people but you can feel very exposed at times wondering if you will ever get your money back. I would not do it that way again as, with most things helicopter related, any dispute is likely to involve a sum of money far greater then the cost of a lawyer to draw up a contract.
What happens if you have just paid out for your share of a big service and then the true legal owner just flys off with the machine ?
Or what if you fly very little one quarter and then there is major works to be done.
You really must get a legal document in place. Who is the legal owner ? If you set up a company to do this then who are the directors and shareholders ? What happens if you want out ? How are voting right split ?
The list goes on but, in the current economic climate when people may appear to be flash with cash one moment but bust the next, I would prefer to take the time to get something more formal than a handshake in place.
Yes, I have been there. I let emotion run ahead and did not have a firm contract. All worked out just fine in the end as I was dealing with decent people but you can feel very exposed at times wondering if you will ever get your money back. I would not do it that way again as, with most things helicopter related, any dispute is likely to involve a sum of money far greater then the cost of a lawyer to draw up a contract.
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Thanks Three Blades, you are of course absolutely right. The helicopter community is one of the finest group of people I have ever come across but I'm sure there are exceptions. I will be setting up a newco and will get an appropriate shareholders agreement drafted.
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"The helicopter community is one of the finest group of people I have ever come across but I'm sure there are exceptions"
I'm not a Robbo-ist but I believe they have a painted white line that goes out of alignment in the event of an overspeed on start.
I heard a tale once that a group share member oversped the machine, and then scraped off and re-painted the line !
That might be an urban myth type story, but you get the idea...money, or the fear of having to lose it/pay it out can do strange things to a community's most fine citizen !
I'm not a Robbo-ist but I believe they have a painted white line that goes out of alignment in the event of an overspeed on start.
I heard a tale once that a group share member oversped the machine, and then scraped off and re-painted the line !
That might be an urban myth type story, but you get the idea...money, or the fear of having to lose it/pay it out can do strange things to a community's most fine citizen !
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I have been involved in several groups over the years. Large and small. Fixed wing and rotary. All except one were set up as limited companies with all the group members as equal shareholders. The only major problem we ever had was when one member could no longer afford his monthly subs. We agreed his share should be sold and we deducted the arrears from the proceeds.
