POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)
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Early days and contrary to A of F I've found it to be not as advertised, but definitely as expected.
Built in delays, (15 mins where it used to be a five) go to any old job ("we have been told if a request comes in we have to give them an aircraft") and if you don't like it "you can always walk away".
Apparently it may be a punishable offence to read a negative report about NPAS! previously thought I could make my own mind up?
The only way is The NPAS way.
Built in delays, (15 mins where it used to be a five) go to any old job ("we have been told if a request comes in we have to give them an aircraft") and if you don't like it "you can always walk away".
Apparently it may be a punishable offence to read a negative report about NPAS! previously thought I could make my own mind up?
The only way is The NPAS way.
Thread Starter
Fly for fun.
No the thread isn't for self adulation. But feel free to give some.
I just wanted to specifically steer it towards cops.
After all the government on ALL their comments and inputs seem to making a point at saying that NPAS is "POLICE DRIVEN".....
Makes me suspicious that at some point they'll wash their hands of it and say "nothing to do with us guv..!"
The point remains tho that if winsor2 happens they'll be very few actual police working as crew..!
No the thread isn't for self adulation. But feel free to give some.
I just wanted to specifically steer it towards cops.
After all the government on ALL their comments and inputs seem to making a point at saying that NPAS is "POLICE DRIVEN".....
Makes me suspicious that at some point they'll wash their hands of it and say "nothing to do with us guv..!"
The point remains tho that if winsor2 happens they'll be very few actual police working as crew..!
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Fortyodd,
Plenty of ex Nimrod crew with camera experience and many of them found themselves out of a job overnight, not forgetting Harrier mates. Lets face it the Military have been hit harder!
I agree that it's very sad that an experienced bobby has to take a 5K pay cut but at least he can re-muster to do the job he joined to do...Be a Police Officer.
Government run agencies are easy pickings so we all have to live with that or move on. Remember "No one is irreplaceable"!
I say this, not as a police air observer, but as a pilot who has worked alongside many of them for the past 15 years. When you can honestly add their levels of skill, ability and knowledge to your CV along with your "camera time" you might get a look in.
I agree that it's very sad that an experienced bobby has to take a 5K pay cut but at least he can re-muster to do the job he joined to do...Be a Police Officer.
Government run agencies are easy pickings so we all have to live with that or move on. Remember "No one is irreplaceable"!
C'mon children, stop being silly!
We are talking about Police Helicopters here, not toys. These a/c were purchased at public expense and are crammed full of sophisticated Police role equipment. It matters little, I suppose, who owns them now, The Local force or NPAS. But the public who paid for them have a right to expect the best bang for their buck.
Now I do not believe for one moment that what has happened will be an improvement on what went before. Nor do I believe that the promised savings will be delivered. However just to prove that I do believe in Father Christmas I will say that I believe that the NPAS and ACPO spin machines will be spooled up to show that it has indeed been the best thing since the invention of sliced bread.
So how can the public ensure that they do get the best bang for their buck?
Well quite simply, - insist that your aircraft ( And whatever the spin, they are your aircraft) are properly crewed by real Police Officers with a nose and dedication for doing a Police task. Officers who have spent years feeling collars and have a sixth sense on how a criminal behaves and acts.
If you believe that some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine. But I can assure you that many years of experience shows that it is just not going to get the best out of that airframe. Remember a police officer who is not cutting the mustard can more easily be returned to the core role of patrol officer. The civilian with a contract and job description is another kettle of fish. Tribunals etc etc. Aircraft do go tech! The Police officer can be re deployed for a while. The civilian observer??
I have been involved in Police Air Support since 1984 and have watched it grow up. The well proven system has always brought out the best in its staff, or on the odd occasion that an observer has proved to lack motivation, through some pretty implacable UEO's, ruthlessly pruned out the dead wood.
Borderless Policing was not something strange or new to the ASU's. They did it right from the early days, - and why? To catch bloody criminals thats why!
Now, because of bloody politicians and accountants, its whole existance and effectiveness is threatened. Does no one seem to understand that effectiveness is not about being able to show a theoretical helicopter availability in a region over 24 hours, but is actually about how quickly that aircraft can be overhead the task in order to be able to do something useful?
The only good thing left, is the the certainty that as long as that Police Helicopter is crewed by Police Officers then effectiveness may still stand a chance.
Naturally I do not ignore the essential "driver" in my remarks. My experience was that they quickly became part of the team, and enjoyed the task as much as we did.
tigerfish
We are talking about Police Helicopters here, not toys. These a/c were purchased at public expense and are crammed full of sophisticated Police role equipment. It matters little, I suppose, who owns them now, The Local force or NPAS. But the public who paid for them have a right to expect the best bang for their buck.
Now I do not believe for one moment that what has happened will be an improvement on what went before. Nor do I believe that the promised savings will be delivered. However just to prove that I do believe in Father Christmas I will say that I believe that the NPAS and ACPO spin machines will be spooled up to show that it has indeed been the best thing since the invention of sliced bread.
So how can the public ensure that they do get the best bang for their buck?
Well quite simply, - insist that your aircraft ( And whatever the spin, they are your aircraft) are properly crewed by real Police Officers with a nose and dedication for doing a Police task. Officers who have spent years feeling collars and have a sixth sense on how a criminal behaves and acts.
If you believe that some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine. But I can assure you that many years of experience shows that it is just not going to get the best out of that airframe. Remember a police officer who is not cutting the mustard can more easily be returned to the core role of patrol officer. The civilian with a contract and job description is another kettle of fish. Tribunals etc etc. Aircraft do go tech! The Police officer can be re deployed for a while. The civilian observer??
I have been involved in Police Air Support since 1984 and have watched it grow up. The well proven system has always brought out the best in its staff, or on the odd occasion that an observer has proved to lack motivation, through some pretty implacable UEO's, ruthlessly pruned out the dead wood.
Borderless Policing was not something strange or new to the ASU's. They did it right from the early days, - and why? To catch bloody criminals thats why!
Now, because of bloody politicians and accountants, its whole existance and effectiveness is threatened. Does no one seem to understand that effectiveness is not about being able to show a theoretical helicopter availability in a region over 24 hours, but is actually about how quickly that aircraft can be overhead the task in order to be able to do something useful?
The only good thing left, is the the certainty that as long as that Police Helicopter is crewed by Police Officers then effectiveness may still stand a chance.
Naturally I do not ignore the essential "driver" in my remarks. My experience was that they quickly became part of the team, and enjoyed the task as much as we did.
tigerfish
FFF
I think you'll find that the Rotorheads forum is designed to be "A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".
Tigerfish
I have a great deal of respect for you and your experience and agree with a vast amount of what you say but I would like to see the evidence that
I think I'd be able to prove otherwise.
Let's not make this a civilianisation debate.
I think you'll find that the Rotorheads forum is designed to be "A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".
Tigerfish
I have a great deal of respect for you and your experience and agree with a vast amount of what you say but I would like to see the evidence that
some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine. But I can assure you that many years of experience shows that it is just not going to get the best out of that airframe
Let's not make this a civilianisation debate.
Thread Starter
Fly for fun...
Really...! Is that where you want to go..
Ok theres a pilot in the room, let's talk about you... and sorry for intruding..!!
However before we do...
Thank you tigerfish for such a well observed post..!
Perhaps FFF needs to remember that the fleet of uk police a/c are there for one reason.. Police work.
I assume the name "fly for fun" means "not a professional pilot" and thus outside of police aviation. Otherwise he/she would realise the truth in tiger-fish's comments, in that the crews operate very much as a team. With only a few notable exceptions most pilots respect the TFO's skills and experience and vice versa. Several of my team have over 3000 hrs. When we've had serving mil pilots come visit us or give CRM, our way of working doesn't compute with them, and they can't get their heads round it. It's always been about mutual respect. We as cops respect our pilots skills, and sacrifices in most cases in doing what they do. Our pilots respect us cops because they know that we've got that overiding drive to lock up criminals.
We don't jump up and down complaining about whose train set it is.. !
Really...! Is that where you want to go..
Ok theres a pilot in the room, let's talk about you... and sorry for intruding..!!
However before we do...
Thank you tigerfish for such a well observed post..!
Perhaps FFF needs to remember that the fleet of uk police a/c are there for one reason.. Police work.
I assume the name "fly for fun" means "not a professional pilot" and thus outside of police aviation. Otherwise he/she would realise the truth in tiger-fish's comments, in that the crews operate very much as a team. With only a few notable exceptions most pilots respect the TFO's skills and experience and vice versa. Several of my team have over 3000 hrs. When we've had serving mil pilots come visit us or give CRM, our way of working doesn't compute with them, and they can't get their heads round it. It's always been about mutual respect. We as cops respect our pilots skills, and sacrifices in most cases in doing what they do. Our pilots respect us cops because they know that we've got that overiding drive to lock up criminals.
We don't jump up and down complaining about whose train set it is.. !
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Tigerfish,
Isn't that what selection and training is all about? I doubt you or I would allow some muppet to do the job that states he wants to wazz and zoom about the sky and spook a few chav's.
It's about attempting to replicate the job that was done so professionally by a Police officer,though no decision of mine or yours, has to continue, however poor or badly the job spec has been affected!
You will never replace experience and skills but you must attempt to plug the gap the best you can.
If you believe that some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine.
It's about attempting to replicate the job that was done so professionally by a Police officer,though no decision of mine or yours, has to continue, however poor or badly the job spec has been affected!
You will never replace experience and skills but you must attempt to plug the gap the best you can.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
backtothebeat
Nice one backtothebeat, how respectful of you.
I think you have lost any respect you might have had from 'your pilots', so I guess you should refer to your username and stand by it. You will find that your overriding drive will be best fulfilled by being backonthebeat, rather than beingintheair :roll eyes:
Most officers I now don't really like being referred to as 'cops', so you've probably also lost their respect
We as cops respect our pilots skills, and sacrifices in most cases in doing what they do. Our pilots respect us cops because they know that we've got that overiding drive to lock up criminals.
Ok theres a pilot in the room, let's talk about you... and sorry for intruding..!!
I think you have lost any respect you might have had from 'your pilots', so I guess you should refer to your username and stand by it. You will find that your overriding drive will be best fulfilled by being backonthebeat, rather than beingintheair :roll eyes:
Most officers I now don't really like being referred to as 'cops', so you've probably also lost their respect
Whilst I can understand some of the comments made in respect of civilian observers, I remain of the opinion that the primary responsibility of the authority is to get the very best out of that very expensive resource.
In the past, when acting as a Silver Commander, I have often observed forward Bronze commanders effectively handing over local control of an incident to the aircraft overhead. They did that confident in the knowledge that up there, giving them advice and direction, was an experienced police officer, subject to the same rules as they were. And to a similar extent knowing what was going on, I allowed that to happen.
I do not believe that the same confidence would occur, if it were known that the entire crew up there were none police!
I repeat, the helicopter is a very effective tool when used properly, but it is also an expensive resource, so convince me that it is OK to take risks with its effectiveness, by taking its command and control out of Police hands and allowing it to be crewed by civilians!
To save a few bob by reducing the confidence in, and command effectiveness, of that resource is not a good idea.
The civilian observer is less flexible in respect of what you can do with him/her during times when the a/c is off line. Once again you may have saved a few bob but was that saving truly cost effective?
That "Police Nose" for tracking down that criminal is impossible to quantify or prove. but believe me as a senior operational officer I have seen it in action many times. You might not be able to put a monetary value on it, but I am bloody sure that you will see a reduction in effectiveness of the air support concept were it to become the norm.
Windsor, is mad! How can you deploy a multi million pound resource, and rely on it to do a good job, but at the same time state that the officer up there, who is controling what it is going on on the ground, is not a front line officer?
tigerfish
In the past, when acting as a Silver Commander, I have often observed forward Bronze commanders effectively handing over local control of an incident to the aircraft overhead. They did that confident in the knowledge that up there, giving them advice and direction, was an experienced police officer, subject to the same rules as they were. And to a similar extent knowing what was going on, I allowed that to happen.
I do not believe that the same confidence would occur, if it were known that the entire crew up there were none police!
I repeat, the helicopter is a very effective tool when used properly, but it is also an expensive resource, so convince me that it is OK to take risks with its effectiveness, by taking its command and control out of Police hands and allowing it to be crewed by civilians!
To save a few bob by reducing the confidence in, and command effectiveness, of that resource is not a good idea.
The civilian observer is less flexible in respect of what you can do with him/her during times when the a/c is off line. Once again you may have saved a few bob but was that saving truly cost effective?
That "Police Nose" for tracking down that criminal is impossible to quantify or prove. but believe me as a senior operational officer I have seen it in action many times. You might not be able to put a monetary value on it, but I am bloody sure that you will see a reduction in effectiveness of the air support concept were it to become the norm.
Windsor, is mad! How can you deploy a multi million pound resource, and rely on it to do a good job, but at the same time state that the officer up there, who is controling what it is going on on the ground, is not a front line officer?
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 6th Oct 2012 at 17:01.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The civilian observer is less flexible in respect of what you can do with him/her during times when the a/c is off line.
Thread Starter
Silsoe that's called banter..
All pilots need the p£ss taking out of them on a regular basis, every knows that..?
And why don't the cops you work with like being called cops..? Are you sure about that. I think you'll find it's fine when it comes from another cop..
On a wider issue about Winsor, it affects far more "cops" than just those in air support. There are lots of other specialist posts, including covert surveillance which also don't meet the criteria for remaining on final pay grade. I gather the whole thing is going to arbitration this month. The problem is it could drag on way beyond the decision time for joining NPAS. It's difficult to project forward what might be on the table. I've tried to get updates from NPAS about what Mr Marshal is doing about it, however I'm met with the usual "were working on it".
All pilots need the p£ss taking out of them on a regular basis, every knows that..?
And why don't the cops you work with like being called cops..? Are you sure about that. I think you'll find it's fine when it comes from another cop..
On a wider issue about Winsor, it affects far more "cops" than just those in air support. There are lots of other specialist posts, including covert surveillance which also don't meet the criteria for remaining on final pay grade. I gather the whole thing is going to arbitration this month. The problem is it could drag on way beyond the decision time for joining NPAS. It's difficult to project forward what might be on the table. I've tried to get updates from NPAS about what Mr Marshal is doing about it, however I'm met with the usual "were working on it".
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As we seem hell bent on the old (very old) officer v civi debate, i've been amused over the years how many pc observers have been dead set against civilianisation of the role.....until around 18 months from their pension date!
I work with 2/3rds of the civilian TFOs and in my opinion they're amongst the finest of the 40 or so I've worked with, give me an experienced civi observer over an over confident police know it all just off the 3 weeks/6 hour TFO course any day. It takes a longer time to get rid of the pre-conceived ideas as it does to train them. Teamwork is what it's about, as long as we keep fighting over the basics of who we are, we're really not going to be making the most of whats left.
I work with 2/3rds of the civilian TFOs and in my opinion they're amongst the finest of the 40 or so I've worked with, give me an experienced civi observer over an over confident police know it all just off the 3 weeks/6 hour TFO course any day. It takes a longer time to get rid of the pre-conceived ideas as it does to train them. Teamwork is what it's about, as long as we keep fighting over the basics of who we are, we're really not going to be making the most of whats left.
Tigerfish
"Nose" is about experience, understanding of the situation and adaptability. It is not a super power that comes with a warrant card.
"Nose" is about experience, understanding of the situation and adaptability. It is not a super power that comes with a warrant card.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
No backtothebeat, what you said to flyforfun was a petty bitter attack. You only call it banter now because you have someone else challenging you.
Banter is something more like;
As you only have 6 posts on PPRuNe (at the time of posting this) all of which are on this thread, don't get into the train of thought that anyone is really listening to what you have to say. Young school lads call British Police Officers/Observers/TFO's 'cops', not the people themselves. You've clearly been watching too much CSI or Hawaii-5-0 or perhaps it's spending too much time on the Play-box wheel spinning cars in Grand Theft Auto.
Oh yes, cutting and pasting from other threads to make yourself appear to be 'in the know' doesn't work here either
Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot
Banter is something more like;
As you only have 6 posts on PPRuNe (at the time of posting this) all of which are on this thread, don't get into the train of thought that anyone is really listening to what you have to say. Young school lads call British Police Officers/Observers/TFO's 'cops', not the people themselves. You've clearly been watching too much CSI or Hawaii-5-0 or perhaps it's spending too much time on the Play-box wheel spinning cars in Grand Theft Auto.
Oh yes, cutting and pasting from other threads to make yourself appear to be 'in the know' doesn't work here either
Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot
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Civ obs have been doing a splendid job in the East for years, with the confidence of those on the ground and in the air. I suppose the commanders not realising who is in the aircraft and still getting a superb service just shows that civs are the equal of any officer TFO.
Thread Starter
Ah Silsoe my mistake.
Your not ex mil are you..
We cops at our unit do take the p£ss out of "our" pilots.. And VERY much vice versa..
by the way "cop" isn't a derogatory term I don't see why you have a problem with it.? Perhaps you could get a cop from your unit to comment.,?
It may be an issue local to you, I don't know of any cops that have a problem with it and I've known a few over the last 20 years.
And yes. I did have a go at fly for fun for the "this is a pilots forum" comment, when clearly it isn't it, and the comment was quite unnecessary. I'm sure he's a grown up and wont be hurt at anonymouse ramblings in a small fishpond like prune...?
Otherwise you can pass on my apologies to him/her...!
Your not ex mil are you..
We cops at our unit do take the p£ss out of "our" pilots.. And VERY much vice versa..
by the way "cop" isn't a derogatory term I don't see why you have a problem with it.? Perhaps you could get a cop from your unit to comment.,?
It may be an issue local to you, I don't know of any cops that have a problem with it and I've known a few over the last 20 years.
And yes. I did have a go at fly for fun for the "this is a pilots forum" comment, when clearly it isn't it, and the comment was quite unnecessary. I'm sure he's a grown up and wont be hurt at anonymouse ramblings in a small fishpond like prune...?
Otherwise you can pass on my apologies to him/her...!