EC155 vs AW109S
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EC155 vs AW109S
Can't find any previous comparisons between the two.
Capital outlay aside, would be interested in any performance and support comments relating to these two types.
For a corporate role 3-4 pax (with limited overwater flying ie. 10nm about once every quarter) which would you choose and why?
Capital outlay aside, would be interested in any performance and support comments relating to these two types.
For a corporate role 3-4 pax (with limited overwater flying ie. 10nm about once every quarter) which would you choose and why?
Hello,
Well, not realy the same category,
The 155 as a MTOW of 4900 Kgs and the Grand New as a MTOW of 3200 Kgs.
So their price (new or second hand) are very very different !
For 3 or 4 Pax : the 109 for sure or maybe as second choise a 365N3 that you have not considered.
Well, not realy the same category,
The 155 as a MTOW of 4900 Kgs and the Grand New as a MTOW of 3200 Kgs.
So their price (new or second hand) are very very different !
For 3 or 4 Pax : the 109 for sure or maybe as second choise a 365N3 that you have not considered.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 20th Aug 2012 at 17:08.
I would be interested to know whether the figures I have (below) are even remotely accurate:
EC155 Exterior
EC155 Interior Layout
AW109S Exterior
AW109S Interior Layout
As you probably know, Prince Albert of Monaco went for the 155 but .. I believe he had little choice in the matter!
EC155 Exterior
EC155 Interior Layout
AW109S Exterior
AW109S Interior Layout
As you probably know, Prince Albert of Monaco went for the 155 but .. I believe he had little choice in the matter!
Sav - don't know about the 109, but your 155 figures are a wee bit off.
Can't be specific on the disposable load off the top of my head (but 2300kg seems a bit optimistic - maybe possible in a very light aircraft with virtually nothing installed in the way of extras), but she should easily cruise at 150kts plus at 50% MAUW and should be over 145 even at MAUW. As for fuel burn at MCP - about 315kg/h. That should be not too far away from you 460nm still-air to VFR reserves.
She's a great aircraft to fly!
OH
Can't be specific on the disposable load off the top of my head (but 2300kg seems a bit optimistic - maybe possible in a very light aircraft with virtually nothing installed in the way of extras), but she should easily cruise at 150kts plus at 50% MAUW and should be over 145 even at MAUW. As for fuel burn at MCP - about 315kg/h. That should be not too far away from you 460nm still-air to VFR reserves.
She's a great aircraft to fly!
OH
Perhaps both aircraft are overkill for your perceived role?
Personally, would opt for As365n1/n2 with corporate fit and floats. Smaller engines than 155 so gives you better range. I did the comparison and found 109/n3 unable to do some of the flights n1 could operating in private/corporate sector. N1 and n2 not option in aoc commercial role due to poor genuine helipad .
Currently fly the 155 and have extensive experience of flying n1 in VIP/corporate role - the interior shot of 155 looks cramped to what is actually available. Much larger cockpit and cabin than 109 range, and reflected in price.
Personally, would opt for As365n1/n2 with corporate fit and floats. Smaller engines than 155 so gives you better range. I did the comparison and found 109/n3 unable to do some of the flights n1 could operating in private/corporate sector. N1 and n2 not option in aoc commercial role due to poor genuine helipad .
Currently fly the 155 and have extensive experience of flying n1 in VIP/corporate role - the interior shot of 155 looks cramped to what is actually available. Much larger cockpit and cabin than 109 range, and reflected in price.
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Thanks for the feedback.
I have been told that the N3 has good OEI performance so this could be an option but in this project the owner's budget really isn't the biggest issue.
Its always better if you can get good operating costs but technical support is another really important issue and both AW and EC have their good and not so good points in this area.
I have been told that the N3 has good OEI performance so this could be an option but in this project the owner's budget really isn't the biggest issue.
Its always better if you can get good operating costs but technical support is another really important issue and both AW and EC have their good and not so good points in this area.
Anthony Supplebottom :
"but in this project the owner's budget really isn't the biggest issue"
What !
So a 139 in a four VVIP seats config will let more room for legs and shoulders
Seriously, have you seen the second hand 365N3 reg G-DOLF (ex James Dyson aircraft)
Very nice aircraft and she's got Emergency floatation gear fixed and removable parts !
The two fwd VIP seats can be put in a front looking side (sorry about my poor English) that is very pleasant for the pax.
you can find her on controller.com
"but in this project the owner's budget really isn't the biggest issue"
What !
So a 139 in a four VVIP seats config will let more room for legs and shoulders
Seriously, have you seen the second hand 365N3 reg G-DOLF (ex James Dyson aircraft)
Very nice aircraft and she's got Emergency floatation gear fixed and removable parts !
The two fwd VIP seats can be put in a front looking side (sorry about my poor English) that is very pleasant for the pax.
you can find her on controller.com
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Aug 2012 at 14:22.
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I would be interested to know whether the figures I have (below) are even remotely accurate:
Difference / payload = 1035 kgs approx.
Your fuel consumption figure is about 10% pessimistic.
Bell 429?
Have you considered the Bell 429? Especially if you think that technical support is really important issue. It should probably be able to meet your flying profile.
For a B I'd suggest 320kg/hr. the MCTOM is 4800kg (4920 for the B1) so with a dry empty mass (2 pilot) of around 3400kg for a corporate machine, I think your disposable is a bit optimistic. The speed seems a bit pessimistic, still, from what I recall, and I'm not sure what you mean by "50% of MAUW." It's not possible to operate at that weight as it would be 2,400 kg i.e. below the empty weight. One thing the EC155 really excels in is the high altitude cruise - especially compared to the S-76 which becomes Vne limited above 4,000 ft. I regularly saw 165 kts TAS and 275 kg/hr at 8-10,000 ft!
Last edited by 212man; 22nd Aug 2012 at 00:53.
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Don't forget the 7 day / 15fh engineering requirement on the 155. Of course, cannot be done by a pilot, so unless you are based with a maintenance company, it can be a pain in the backside. Good old EC.
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Hyds Out - Would you mind providing a little more info on the 15hr inspection?
If that's the case then yes, it could be a right pain especially during continental trips.
If that's the case then yes, it could be a right pain especially during continental trips.
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Anthony, sent you a PM, but basically no pilot approved Check A as such on the 155, just a walkround. Instead an engineer does a 7/15. Takes 2-3 hours (ish) which comprises a general check, levels etc. Pilot not approved to open cowlings. Not trusted. Or b), another EC money making scheme. Does mean you can take it away for 7 days without checking anything.
Surprised EC haven't developed an engineers seat in the boot. Then at least, when touring, they are on hand.
Surprised EC haven't developed an engineers seat in the boot. Then at least, when touring, they are on hand.
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Does mean you can take it away for 7 days without checking anything.
Thanks for the tip.
15/7 EC 155
Well Hydsout,
with some extra training - which isn´t bad, because you understand more from your machine - a pilot can also do the check....
You´re right about the 2 to 3 hrs ish time needed - and some extra kit, i.e. for tyre pressure and a mirror, to look for the cracks ;-)
Greetings Flying Bull
with some extra training - which isn´t bad, because you understand more from your machine - a pilot can also do the check....
You´re right about the 2 to 3 hrs ish time needed - and some extra kit, i.e. for tyre pressure and a mirror, to look for the cracks ;-)
Greetings Flying Bull
Hi Anthony,
couple of pages wich checks to be done.
From opening the radome, checking for water in the drailines, selftesting the inbuild computers, total fuselage, from windows over doors, door locking operations including display on the caution and advisory display while opening and closing, all lights, landing gear with pressure to the tyres, fire extinguish system pressure, tail with fenestron, with looks to damage and play of blades, rotor head and blades with all the dampers, scisor links and so on, opening engine and gearbox doors (better remove them and instal them later again - better view and quicker) and checking all the lines, pop ups and levels as well as all the flexiable couplings (by turning the rotor the wrong direction).
Main gear box for cracks on the bottom plate and wear on the lines, hydraulik jacks and reservoirs. Checking also the mobile fire extinguisher, the remaining pressure of the hydraulik system, the firts aid box, interior and even some cleaning inside.
And if done correctly - two to three hours with a few moments of help for the engine doors and the turning of the rotor.
Greetings Flying Bull
couple of pages wich checks to be done.
From opening the radome, checking for water in the drailines, selftesting the inbuild computers, total fuselage, from windows over doors, door locking operations including display on the caution and advisory display while opening and closing, all lights, landing gear with pressure to the tyres, fire extinguish system pressure, tail with fenestron, with looks to damage and play of blades, rotor head and blades with all the dampers, scisor links and so on, opening engine and gearbox doors (better remove them and instal them later again - better view and quicker) and checking all the lines, pop ups and levels as well as all the flexiable couplings (by turning the rotor the wrong direction).
Main gear box for cracks on the bottom plate and wear on the lines, hydraulik jacks and reservoirs. Checking also the mobile fire extinguisher, the remaining pressure of the hydraulik system, the firts aid box, interior and even some cleaning inside.
And if done correctly - two to three hours with a few moments of help for the engine doors and the turning of the rotor.
Greetings Flying Bull
Last edited by Flying Bull; 24th Aug 2012 at 18:06.