Austria - alpine rescuer dead after release of HEC
Dropping down rescuers by releasing the upper hooks on the helicopter is NEVER a procedure on rescue HEC operations, whatever medias are still writing. At the end of the rope is allways a ring, a metal connecting part. This metal alone accelerated by his own weight and the weight of the rope will kill instantly any person on the ground if falling down 20 or 30 meters from a helicopter right to the head of a person. On the used rope in the accident there are at least 3 metal rings, cause it was a double hook system with integrated connecting rope.
No austrian medias writing about an "ask to release" by the killed rescuer. The killed rescuer only transmitted about the hight above the ground as officials said on the press conference. Also Roy Knaus stated the Pilot released the hooks after he lost sight to prevent "something much worse".
No austrian medias writing about an "ask to release" by the killed rescuer. The killed rescuer only transmitted about the hight above the ground as officials said on the press conference. Also Roy Knaus stated the Pilot released the hooks after he lost sight to prevent "something much worse".
Last edited by tecpilot; 1st May 2012 at 17:24.
All flags to half-mast, a sad day for mountain rescue. More than 1500 funeral guests accompanied today the burial service for KIFA air rescuer Franz Franzeskon. Austria decorated the very popular rescuer of outstanding merits postum with the Golden Medal For Merit, one of the highest decorations of Austria. A formation flight of an interior ministry helicopter and an EC 135 rescue helicopter gave a last farewell from the air.
Last edited by tecpilot; 4th May 2012 at 18:03.
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.....just read that any further investigation will NOT happen.
Ermittlungen nach Flugunfall eingestellt - tirol.ORF.at
Conclusion: Pilot "did the right thing" - reaction understandable, after loosing control in fog (well, he got away just fine with the helicopter, didn't he!)
WTF!!
.....propably one of the perks if you work for Austrocontrol...
3top
Ermittlungen nach Flugunfall eingestellt - tirol.ORF.at
Conclusion: Pilot "did the right thing" - reaction understandable, after loosing control in fog (well, he got away just fine with the helicopter, didn't he!)
WTF!!
.....propably one of the perks if you work for Austrocontrol...
3top
Last edited by 3top; 23rd Jan 2013 at 01:12.
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Sorry to hear that...
Without having been there-and with only the information from the media, i find this pilot "guilty" of killing the guys on the hoist by doing stupid things (the kind of stuff you usually learn to avoid BEFORE getting in)..
Without having been there-and with only the information from the media, i find this pilot "guilty" of killing the guys on the hoist by doing stupid things (the kind of stuff you usually learn to avoid BEFORE getting in)..
Huey - to quote you:
<<Without having been there-and with only the information from the media, i find this pilot "guilty" of killing the guys on the hoist>>
Well that's a reliable and well founded basis for justice in a modern society!
<<Without having been there-and with only the information from the media, i find this pilot "guilty" of killing the guys on the hoist>>
Well that's a reliable and well founded basis for justice in a modern society!
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We have discussed this often enough-this is a rumor network; a place where PROFESSIONAL (and not so professional) aviators share their opinion.
I am not a judge, nor am i a lawyer......i just say that-from what i HEARD about this accident (and i have heard more than the stuff published here in the forum, as i know some of the guys down there), the pilot did something wrong.
When you get into ****ty weather-you did something wrong beforehand-but **** happens.
To kill people that are hanging beneath your helicopter by just flicking a switch (to counteract your poor decision making before)-that´s wrong...
I am not a judge, nor am i a lawyer......i just say that-from what i HEARD about this accident (and i have heard more than the stuff published here in the forum, as i know some of the guys down there), the pilot did something wrong.
When you get into ****ty weather-you did something wrong beforehand-but **** happens.
To kill people that are hanging beneath your helicopter by just flicking a switch (to counteract your poor decision making before)-that´s wrong...
Last edited by hueyracer; 23rd Jan 2013 at 07:56.
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As always, one should not jump to conclusions based on hear-saying and media reports only.
In this case however, the very basics are all wrong:
a- "Highly experienced" pilot with what - 2600 hrs??
b- Part-time pilot
c- Procedure basics: you NEVER release personnel from the hook (...and I am not a experienced rescue pilot, I let those continue the long list of rescue wrongs.....)
d- If the professionals (Christopherus pilots) cancel, because of the environment, one should SERIOUSLY think about staying on the ground too!
As it looks like the investigating inspectors and state attorneys are all experts too in this case [....possibly they could not find any REAL experts??] and obviously the investigation came to a "logic" conclusion - nothing more to say - let it go already!!
No matter, that the actual accident is rather just secondary (no less fatal though) - it is the chain of a wrong set-up and wrong decisions that led to it.
[Obviously, if the pilot was not low time, part time, in-experienced (...in rescue and rescue procedures) this would have never happened.....
Not to say he could not have gained experience at this level of hours, but no one seemed to care about proper training and introduction into the operation.
[Probably no time for this - .....as an inspector he is most likely too busy]
'nough said!
Off the box,
thjakits
In this case however, the very basics are all wrong:
a- "Highly experienced" pilot with what - 2600 hrs??
b- Part-time pilot
c- Procedure basics: you NEVER release personnel from the hook (...and I am not a experienced rescue pilot, I let those continue the long list of rescue wrongs.....)
d- If the professionals (Christopherus pilots) cancel, because of the environment, one should SERIOUSLY think about staying on the ground too!
As it looks like the investigating inspectors and state attorneys are all experts too in this case [....possibly they could not find any REAL experts??] and obviously the investigation came to a "logic" conclusion - nothing more to say - let it go already!!
No matter, that the actual accident is rather just secondary (no less fatal though) - it is the chain of a wrong set-up and wrong decisions that led to it.
[Obviously, if the pilot was not low time, part time, in-experienced (...in rescue and rescue procedures) this would have never happened.....
Not to say he could not have gained experience at this level of hours, but no one seemed to care about proper training and introduction into the operation.
[Probably no time for this - .....as an inspector he is most likely too busy]
'nough said!
Off the box,
thjakits
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Rescuers wear helmets
The rings we use weigh 365 grams each, there are three of them
Those rings falling 150 feet is not going to kill somone wearing a helmet. If it hit them its going to leave a nice welt, possibly beak some of the weaker bones if it contacted them.
I find it ironic that just a month ago there was a HEC accident where (from the sound of things) the lineman could have been saved if the pilot DID have the ability to realease him, and now after some of the same people saying there should be no means of realease nor no practical means of release.
There should be a means of release, on the flight controls protected against inadvertant release by double actions. If the pilot went IIMC or got LTE and started spinning and the rescuer did in fact ask to be released the pilot did the right thing at that point in cutting him loose.
Essentially he relied on the rescuers judgement that he was in a position to land without serious injury.
Whether the pilot (or the company) did the right things getting into that situation is a different point entirely. From the sound of things, they did not.
Those rings falling 150 feet is not going to kill somone wearing a helmet. If it hit them its going to leave a nice welt, possibly beak some of the weaker bones if it contacted them.
I find it ironic that just a month ago there was a HEC accident where (from the sound of things) the lineman could have been saved if the pilot DID have the ability to realease him, and now after some of the same people saying there should be no means of realease nor no practical means of release.
There should be a means of release, on the flight controls protected against inadvertant release by double actions. If the pilot went IIMC or got LTE and started spinning and the rescuer did in fact ask to be released the pilot did the right thing at that point in cutting him loose.
Essentially he relied on the rescuers judgement that he was in a position to land without serious injury.
Whether the pilot (or the company) did the right things getting into that situation is a different point entirely. From the sound of things, they did not.
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and now after some of the same people saying there should be no means of realease nor no practical means of release
Just keep in mind:
This was NOT a "rescue mission".
It was the recovery of a (already dead) body.....
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"That in itself tells it all.....when one strings human beings from the helicopter....you should remove the ability to release the load by any other means than say manually operated bolt cutters or a big sharp knife or axe!"
Doesn't take much reading into, its a fairly overt statement.
That being said I agree ith much of his post, just not that statement.
I've had this argument many times with many people, and I have heard many say no means of emergency release is neccesary, That "I'm not releasing him not matter what".
To me that is unwise, there are just too many situations where realsing the guy on the end of the rope is the best chance he has.
Reasonable minds can disagree, and I know there are plenty of both sides of this fence, But thats my .02
Doesn't take much reading into, its a fairly overt statement.
That being said I agree ith much of his post, just not that statement.
I've had this argument many times with many people, and I have heard many say no means of emergency release is neccesary, That "I'm not releasing him not matter what".
To me that is unwise, there are just too many situations where realsing the guy on the end of the rope is the best chance he has.
Reasonable minds can disagree, and I know there are plenty of both sides of this fence, But thats my .02
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Pilot aquitted of all charges and found not guilty by a jury. Expert witness testified in pilots favor. Very interesting ruling considering other pilots with similar accidents have been dragged through the mud by authorities. Well, maybe the outcome has something to do with the pilots association with the Austrian Aviation Authority known as Austro Control?
Once more the Austrians have proven to the rest of the world why they are the laughing stock of helicopter aviation!
Once more the Austrians have proven to the rest of the world why they are the laughing stock of helicopter aviation!
Last edited by imuney; 23rd Jan 2013 at 17:48.
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Let me correct my last statement, did some more research. Charges were dropped due to an "expert" witnesses testimony where he states that 'any pilot with similar experience level would have reacted the same way!' Apparently in Austria this is grounds enough to drop charges?!?!?!
Guess the lesson learned is hire inexperienced low timers because they will not be held accountable for their actions.
Guess the lesson learned is hire inexperienced low timers because they will not be held accountable for their actions.
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@ imuney;
Why are the Austrians the laughing stock of the aviation community? Do you think that it is better anywhere else? What about the US HEMS industry where already three fatal accidents have occurred in the first week of the new year, and nobody, I stress NOBODY is willing to step up to deal with safety concerns and improve the standards. So who is the laughing stock?
Take your business and antics to kindergarten. Maybe a preschooler is willing to listen to your drool!
Servas!!!
Why are the Austrians the laughing stock of the aviation community? Do you think that it is better anywhere else? What about the US HEMS industry where already three fatal accidents have occurred in the first week of the new year, and nobody, I stress NOBODY is willing to step up to deal with safety concerns and improve the standards. So who is the laughing stock?
Take your business and antics to kindergarten. Maybe a preschooler is willing to listen to your drool!
Servas!!!
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Dear Sir, my comments are not directed towards Austrian pilots, I just tried to highlight the corruption and incompetence within Austro Control. Conflict of interest and prejudice is of no concern at this agency.
Why so angry? Did I hit a nerve? Unless you are a member of the good old boys club at Austro Control this shouldn't affect you at all.
However I find it quite amusing to see you point out that US EMS operators crash even more than Austrians do. Well, I guess everything is ok then?, at least by your standard.
Why so angry? Did I hit a nerve? Unless you are a member of the good old boys club at Austro Control this shouldn't affect you at all.
However I find it quite amusing to see you point out that US EMS operators crash even more than Austrians do. Well, I guess everything is ok then?, at least by your standard.
@ alouette
really, the Austrians are the laughing stock of the aviation community.
This sad accident is a chain of mistakes, embarrassments and broken rules and they dropped the charge due to this funny expert testimony?
I would really like to know why a desk flying CAA flight inspector made some bucks in one of his own to be controlled companies? His HEC experience was limited. I would like to know why the mountain police officer acted on the mission as HCM while HEC, prohibited by flight regulations in Austria and why the pilot leaved the well trained and HEC experienced HCM on ground? Did the HCM refuse the crazy mission?
A lot of questions about the mission and it seems they will stay without answers.
really, the Austrians are the laughing stock of the aviation community.
This sad accident is a chain of mistakes, embarrassments and broken rules and they dropped the charge due to this funny expert testimony?
I would really like to know why a desk flying CAA flight inspector made some bucks in one of his own to be controlled companies? His HEC experience was limited. I would like to know why the mountain police officer acted on the mission as HCM while HEC, prohibited by flight regulations in Austria and why the pilot leaved the well trained and HEC experienced HCM on ground? Did the HCM refuse the crazy mission?
A lot of questions about the mission and it seems they will stay without answers.
Last edited by tecpilot; 24th Jan 2013 at 06:02.
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Why don't you point in one direction? It is generalized that every pilot is the laughing stock in Austria - that is how I interpret this post. The corruption within Austro Control is debatable. However, do not generalize, and state that everyone is the laughing stock. And by the way, what the heck does it mean "by my standards"? I have been around long enough TO HAVE A STANDARD - that is why I am still "around."
So therefore I suggest to get to Vienna into the 3rd district, and clean up this mess.
So therefore I suggest to get to Vienna into the 3rd district, and clean up this mess.