Art of flight

JAFO,

You're right, I was just taking Pitots ideas a stage further and putting a 'npas' hand on it. There's an empire to be built here you know, and several little Kingdoms to bring into line. The rulers have to rule from somewhere and it looks like Kent!

Art of flight

To be clearer, I was refering to Pitos last paragraph, but ignoring the bit that the conclusion would be no need for a central control room as I believe Npas have come to the opposite conclusion.

pitofrost

The Chiltern model addresses the flight following issue by requiring the forces with the operating bases (Beds and TVP) to take responsibility. Beds allocate the radio operator for geographical area that covers the base to do it. Seems to work on the rare occasions its needed (most recently when during a running refuel the crew overlooked to call the end of the landing time out, the operator was on it in less than a minute and Oscar 1 in just over the minute, this was during a fairly busy time in the room).

morris1

So. Anything controversial come from the big NPAS meeting today at Ryton. ?

Wagging Finger

Looks like no one on here is high enough up in the food chain to be 'in the loop'.

Topcat598

Good afternoon all, I’ve been following the progress of NPASfor some while and fear I have missed the point. Isn’t the reason for NPASbeing set up, to “provide effect border less air support for all counties whilstreducing costs to the tax payer”.
Having seen the proposed base plan of four aircraft at fourbases for the South East region I am no longer sure that this is the case.
Thecurrent NPAS plan is to have bases at:

RAF Benson: anexisting ASU but requires upgrading to the portacabins currently beingused……………………..Cost £1m (approx)

RAF Honnington: No existing ASU, requires new base built,possible issues with length of lease……………………..……Cost £1m (approx)

Redhill private airfield: No existing ASU, requires new basebuilt, private ground rent rates and no doubt landing fees……Cost £1m +

Southend Airport: No existing ASU, requires new basebuilt, private ground rent rates and no doubt landing fees….....………Cost £1m +

Additional costs:

Metropolitan Police service required to cover Hertfordshireat cost of approx. £2000 p/hr. from 1st October 2012 to 1stApril 2014. Given Hertfordshire required 400hrs flying time from CASU year 2011– 2012 (during a period of strict flying restrictions due to CASU budgetrestraints) that would be a cost of ...................................£1.2m.

RAF Henlow has an MOD contract that states the site has tobe returned to its original state if no longer used for aviation.Cost………………….approx £300,000.

Total NPAS cost £5.5M

Now I understand that there had to be some initial negotiatingby the NPAS team at first to get Police Authorities on side with the projectbut surely now that Nick Herbert has signed the paperwork so that PA’s can bemandated to join, the time has come to locate the bases where they will actuallyprovide effective Air Support and cost savings to the public.

A plan B I suggest would be:

RAF Henlow: anexisting ASU with No costs.

RAF Odiham: an existing ASU with No costs.

RAF Wattisham: an existing ASU with No costs.

Rochester Airfield: A private airfield: No existingASU, requires new base built, private ground rent rates and no doubt landingfees..........cost £1m +

No additional costs for demolishing buildings or having MPSto cover.

Total Cost £1m (approx) ………
.Saving £4.5m approx on NPAS current plan.

Plan B provides effectice cover within 15 minutes for the whole of the south East and only leaves the north west of Oxfordshire without 15 minute cover. A highly rural area with only the quite town of Bicester within it. In addition Brighton, although not within 15 minutes of any ASU under plan B will get extra resilliance as it will have access to two aircraft 16-17 minutes away. NPAS plan shows Brighton as having an aircraft 10 minutes away but that does not factor Gatwick!!
One final point Plan B gives the whole of Hampshire 15 minute coverage without the need to reposition the Dorset aircraft, saving another base build cost.

Just my thoughts.

or am I missing the point??

tigerfish

No chance! Its too logical.

tigerfish

SilsoeSid

Not sure where to go on that one, but just to clear some things up;

Bicester is clearly in the Northeast of the county and is 31 miles from both CRASU & Henlow and less than 10 mins from Benson. The whole Northwest of Oxfordshire can be covered within 15 mins from CRASU & Benson.


As it happens with your plan B, a quiet part of Oxfordshire is within 3 x 15min circles, yet Brighton isn't

Topcat598

Silsoe, under Plan B Brighton gets two aircraft cover in less than 20 minutes as opposed to the NPAS plan of one aircraft. In addition that one aircraft at Redhill is to be a Helimed sponsered cab, £250,000 p/a paid to NPAS. The question is, when that cab gets a Helimed call who covers the whole of the south coast for police tasking? Answer: No one under NPAS! Under plan B there is always a second aircraft to cover the south coastal areas and no requirement for either of them to be sponsered by ambo as the cost saving will have already been made else where. There are two Helimeds covering the south anyway Dunsfold and Rochester so why have a third that will drain police responce?

SilsoeSid

Great, when the next round of savings need to be made, that's that sorted then!

Isn't the prime role of a Police Officer to save life and protect property?
In your scenario the joint Police/Helimed ac is doing just that. If it was purely a police ac and the local Helimed was elsewhere, the police ac could still be called to that same job....a police task (without the financial assistance)

Please post a link to back up that information.


No, but if what you say ref the Met is true, I know a group of people that will be warming up someone elses RS4's, Subarus and R32 Golfs at 3am.

Fly_For_Fun

Just a couple of observations, I understand that the NPAS rhetoric was for 24 hour availability not service. So the political boxes are ticked whilst providing the square root of nothing at the extremities of the SE region. I have also heard that Honington may well start charging landing fees so that is, presumably, an extra cost not factored into all the math. It seems the age old art of promising the world and delivering nothing like it, is alive and well.

ALFIE15

Fly for Fun, I agree with your comments, you would think Nick Herbert would be more careful with his political career on his first position in cabinet. The con's already under political pressure and the fallout from this will be just about the next general election.
I may email Mr Cameron and warn him

SilsoeSid

ALFIE15, does that dance still cost three and fourpence?
If so, we can go together

Senior Pilot

If anyone can point to a public release document that has these operating times, please do so.

Otherwise we are discussing potentially confidential information which should not be in a forum accessed by our friends in the press: and others!

Topcat598

I still believe Plan B would be cheaper and provide more efficient air support.

I got a suggestion for G.O.D job, Rumplestiltskin now he could spin gold from straw.

Art of flight

Is there a plan B+ that might give Norfolk any air support?

Not all aircraft are equal, therefore not all base circles are the same size.

Example, 135P2+ takes around 5 minutes to get up and taxiing (2 stage start to the PWs and lots of avionic and role kit to get on-line), 135T2+ takes around 2 minutes.

The Npas mandate states that the aircraft will be at 126mph in the task direction 2 minutes after task acceptance This was how the deal was sold to Cambs police authority to lose their aircraft (google Cambs PA pdf).

ALFIE15

Senior pilot This information/rumour came from someone in the ASU world connected to the NPAS meeting.
This at the moment is a rumour spreading through the police ASU world, that happens to also be on the Professional pilots Rumour network.
The press or anyone on here are well within their rights to now request the minutes of the meeting through the freedom of information act, as it is in the public interest.


Then let them do so: not read it here in Rotorheads


None of the information has come from any protected documents and at the moment this is a proposal and not current operating procedure.

Whether a proposal or accepted, it is not in the interests of the crew to have their operating times shown here. Common sense would dictate a degree of confidentiality in such things

SP

ALFIE15

Art of flight
I see another play on words here with the term "task acceptance" as at what point is that.
We will now have a system of a bobby on the ground chasing Billy burglar across a field and shouting for air support. That control room then has to contact NPAS call forwarding centre with the details. They will then want all the information to decide if worthy of an aircraft deployment.They will then ring the nearest ASU and forward the URN or relay all the information.
Progress

SilsoeSid

TC,
I'm sure there are many plans we can all come up with that could make things work better. Fact is we won't make any difference to 'the plan' because the farthest we go is here and not up the official channels.

The biggest problem with your 'plan B' would be the planning permission side of Rochester. Perhaps better located than Rochester would be EGKH-Lashenden/Headcorn, which would give an even better coverage of Kent including Dover, Folkestone and Margate which your plan B leaves out, but however covers half of London

cyclic stop

Is this 2 minutes from the pilot sat in the aircraft on standby or sat in the office thumb up bum? I have timed my starts to a scramble from sat in the office thumb up bum up to 126mph 1000ft this takes me 3.5 minutes with no ATC interference problems at our ASU!!!!!