R22 down near Ely, Cambs: Jan 2012
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The identity of the pilot has been made known via other channels so I expect the press will pick it up tomorrow (Monday).
RIP my friend, you were one of the real good guys. See you again.
RIP my friend, you were one of the real good guys. See you again.
Helops - can't see where talkpedlar mentions 'mast-bumping' (maybe he removed it) but it is a condition that can occur in a teetering head helicopter when less than normal G is experienced.
A 'pushover' type manoeuvre, where the cyclic is moved quickly forward, can reduce the G to a point where the main rotor stops influencing the attitude of the fuselage and abnormal angles between the MR and the rotor mast can occur. In relatively benign situations this causes 'mast-bumping' but in extreme cases the MR can impact the tail boom with disastrous results.
Not saying that is what happened in this case but it is a well-documented factor in some Robbie accidents.
A 'pushover' type manoeuvre, where the cyclic is moved quickly forward, can reduce the G to a point where the main rotor stops influencing the attitude of the fuselage and abnormal angles between the MR and the rotor mast can occur. In relatively benign situations this causes 'mast-bumping' but in extreme cases the MR can impact the tail boom with disastrous results.
Not saying that is what happened in this case but it is a well-documented factor in some Robbie accidents.
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IMHO I believe most Ppruners viewing this thread (well those with Robbo experience/knowledge) will already have a pretty clear idea of what happened here
Does the AAIB publish interim reports within a specified timeframe?
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Nope..
I haven't deleted or changed anything.. or mentioned mast-bumping....
Don't expect anything from the AAIB for 9-15 months but, although I carefully avoided speculation earlier, my own view..based on the reported "bang" and clear evidence of high vertical-speed impact, is that this may well be yet another mast-bumping tragedy... Please don't flame me... I was well versed in R22 operations and accident investigation. Again, RIP ol buddy. TP
Don't expect anything from the AAIB for 9-15 months but, although I carefully avoided speculation earlier, my own view..based on the reported "bang" and clear evidence of high vertical-speed impact, is that this may well be yet another mast-bumping tragedy... Please don't flame me... I was well versed in R22 operations and accident investigation. Again, RIP ol buddy. TP
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talkpedlar - based on the reported "bang"
Cheers
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G-CHZN
This was my Dad's first helicopter that he bought just after he passed his test :/ such a shame 
had my first flight in Zulu-November
When he had it, there were no technical problems and he'd had it serviced too.
RIP to the pilot, may he find peace.
had my first flight in Zulu-November When he had it, there were no technical problems and he'd had it serviced too.
RIP to the pilot, may he find peace.
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well im about to start the robbie safety course in california in a few hours and day one is all about crash reviews. il have a natter to them about this one. can someone please tell me what their suspicion is on this one rather than dilly dallying around. they may be totally wrong and thats why we have the aaib at hand but the im sure there are loads of people that will benefit from a stimulated debate.
another sad day for flying. rip.
another sad day for flying. rip.
G-CHZN
This was my Dad's first helicopter that he bought just after he passed his test :/ such a shame had my first flight in Zulu-November
When he had it, there were no technical problems and he'd had it serviced too.
RIP to the pilot, may he find peace.
This was my Dad's first helicopter that he bought just after he passed his test :/ such a shame had my first flight in Zulu-November
When he had it, there were no technical problems and he'd had it serviced too.
RIP to the pilot, may he find peace.
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My condolences to the pilot.
I went to the safety course last year - good luck and it's well worth it.
*If* the investigation rules out mechanical failure or maintenance issues, and *if* it is true that the mast and blades ended up separated from the main wreckage, then mast bumping would appear to leave a tell-tale set of marks on the bump stops and the rotor mast breaks in a relatively identifiable place. The rotor mast and blades would usually fall a distance from the fuselage. I used to check my 22/44 for marks on the bump stops before each flight, I think a lot of people do, it's not something one wants to see.
Carb icing (or any other loss of engine performance) leading to rrpm loss, followed by failure to successfully enter autorotation and catastrophic rotor stall often chops the tail in a relatively identifiable point (I think it's the third sheet back from the tail rotor, plus the blades would cone up, but from recall of accident reports, I don't remember seeing reports where this caused the entire set of both blades to separate - Richard Mornington Sandford would probably be the UK expert on this stuff, and what the indicators are which they use to determine cause.
The reports often seem open-ended, because a precise understanding of the start of the sequence of events simply cannot be established. And without investigative expertise and access to far more information than we have, only the experts will figure it out.
It is a source of unease to me that most Robinson pilots have the low-g mast bumping issue rammed into us repeatedly, but it still appears to happen (whether in this incident or not) more than I'd like to see. I find it hard to believe that all the incidents where it happens can be attributed to poor pilot skills, but clearly events still play out in a way whereby reasonable pilots still end up in a fatality.
This may only ever be cleared up when very lightweight and inexpensive data recorders become available for these small rotorcraft,
Lafite.
I went to the safety course last year - good luck and it's well worth it.
*If* the investigation rules out mechanical failure or maintenance issues, and *if* it is true that the mast and blades ended up separated from the main wreckage, then mast bumping would appear to leave a tell-tale set of marks on the bump stops and the rotor mast breaks in a relatively identifiable place. The rotor mast and blades would usually fall a distance from the fuselage. I used to check my 22/44 for marks on the bump stops before each flight, I think a lot of people do, it's not something one wants to see.
Carb icing (or any other loss of engine performance) leading to rrpm loss, followed by failure to successfully enter autorotation and catastrophic rotor stall often chops the tail in a relatively identifiable point (I think it's the third sheet back from the tail rotor, plus the blades would cone up, but from recall of accident reports, I don't remember seeing reports where this caused the entire set of both blades to separate - Richard Mornington Sandford would probably be the UK expert on this stuff, and what the indicators are which they use to determine cause.
The reports often seem open-ended, because a precise understanding of the start of the sequence of events simply cannot be established. And without investigative expertise and access to far more information than we have, only the experts will figure it out.
It is a source of unease to me that most Robinson pilots have the low-g mast bumping issue rammed into us repeatedly, but it still appears to happen (whether in this incident or not) more than I'd like to see. I find it hard to believe that all the incidents where it happens can be attributed to poor pilot skills, but clearly events still play out in a way whereby reasonable pilots still end up in a fatality.
This may only ever be cleared up when very lightweight and inexpensive data recorders become available for these small rotorcraft,
Lafite.
The problem with mast bumping is that once in a low G situation and if the aircraft rolls to the right, the instinct for a low time PPL is to apply left cyclic to correct the roll, instead of first re-loading the disc. I have seen reports where the top of the mast has sheared off due excessive bumping, meaning the rotor head, complete with the MR blades, separates itself from the aircraft. If the 'breaking in two' witness statement is accurate (and if the fuselage is as complete as it would seem to be in the photo), then one could be excused for thinking that was the likely cause.
However, the witnesses also said they saw "a lot of smoke coming out of the back". Even an unreliable witness would struggle to imagine such obvious evidence, so catastrophic engine failure and subsequent failure to do an auto might be more likely. Whatever, I'm sure the reason will be obvious to the AAIB by now.
However, the witnesses also said they saw "a lot of smoke coming out of the back". Even an unreliable witness would struggle to imagine such obvious evidence, so catastrophic engine failure and subsequent failure to do an auto might be more likely. Whatever, I'm sure the reason will be obvious to the AAIB by now.
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One of the good guys
Amen to that Andy, One of the best in every sense of the word and a real gentleman and total professional. A very sad week for the training world and so many friends. Let's hope we find out the reasons quickly. MB
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Watching From the start of Robinsons manufacture to now. The loss of the Hub & Blades from the R-22 during the mast bumps & blade delams, make for some nasty crashes recovered,The Main gear box has allways remained with the wrecked airframe this is the first from the pix taken where the mast & cowl is not shown,(Is it on the far side of view?) The tail is still attached so no normal blade strike, Fractured mast? Strange ,RIP.
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It goes without saying a very sad accident.
Whilst it would appear the identity of the pilot has been kept out of the press, do we know their experience/qualifications?
Regards
Pwrltd
Whilst it would appear the identity of the pilot has been kept out of the press, do we know their experience/qualifications?
Regards
Pwrltd
Last edited by powerlimited; 9th Jan 2012 at 19:57.
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Whilst it would appear the identity of the pilot has been kept out of the press, do we know their experience/qualifications?
Several thousand of hours on all manner of fixed wing.
PPL(H) which he completed a few weeks before Christmas.
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great discussion some informative stuff even if we may all be proved wrong?? my question is, speculating it is mast bumping, how on earth could a standard cross country flight from a to b result in it?? i mean if he was doing low g manoevers over ridge lines i could understand. but on a cross country?? maybe as a fixie he nosed over hard to avoid something?? but boy it would have to be a hard dive??
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RIP to a fellow aviator - very close to a CFI(H)'s home that I know well - fortunately (selfishly) not him.
stringfellow - shame I am headed back to the UK tomorrow or could have had a beer and gone flying locally! Enjoy the course - who is taking it?
Andy Mayes - I;m guessing you put fixed wing in bold for a reason (Robinson safety notices)?
HTC
stringfellow - shame I am headed back to the UK tomorrow or could have had a beer and gone flying locally! Enjoy the course - who is taking it?
Andy Mayes - I;m guessing you put fixed wing in bold for a reason (Robinson safety notices)?
HTC
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now then crab a beer and a fly out would have been great, what a shame. tim tucker is running it he of the old 2.4 second throttle roll off with no collective response... must have very big balls, and/or small brain!!!!! seems a great course mind.
and as we summise a fellow aviator who had the curiosity to venture into the mysterious world of rotating parts is no longer with us. such a shame.
and as we summise a fellow aviator who had the curiosity to venture into the mysterious world of rotating parts is no longer with us. such a shame.
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Yeah it would - the flying first of course and mine's a rum 
Not sure how long you are in town for but if you can find someone local to take you flying go for it - totally different to flying in the UK. The low level LAX shoreline transition/downtown at night/etc. PM me if you want a recommendation for a school that can arrange it - no connection other than an acquaintance owns it and I have flown their ships a few times.
Tim is a great instructor/examiner - he did my private and commercial checkrides. His tales are worth a book on their own. The first time I did the safety course he taught it and it was by far the best of those I've done. Have you noticed how many of the accidents (shown on the course) are in the UK...
Make the most of the chance to push the R22/44 to the absolute limits with the Robinson pilots - you won't get the chance (and probably wouldn't want to risk it) anywhere else.
HTC
How are the donuts/cakes/pastries?
Not sure how long you are in town for but if you can find someone local to take you flying go for it - totally different to flying in the UK. The low level LAX shoreline transition/downtown at night/etc. PM me if you want a recommendation for a school that can arrange it - no connection other than an acquaintance owns it and I have flown their ships a few times.Tim is a great instructor/examiner - he did my private and commercial checkrides. His tales are worth a book on their own. The first time I did the safety course he taught it and it was by far the best of those I've done. Have you noticed how many of the accidents (shown on the course) are in the UK...
Make the most of the chance to push the R22/44 to the absolute limits with the Robinson pilots - you won't get the chance (and probably wouldn't want to risk it) anywhere else.
HTC
How are the donuts/cakes/pastries?