N Reg Bell47 From Milan to UK?
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N Reg Bell47 From Milan to UK?
Looking at buying N reg 47 in Milan and flying back to the UK. I know this will take a while with its slow top speed and limited range but would be grateful for any help and advice on routing and friendly airfields with Avgas. Thanks
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I don't know the region but know the type well.
It would be a shame to rush the trip.
I think a 2.5 hour flight once every 3 days would maximize the experience of the trip and have you enjoying the different countries and cultures.
You are lucky to have so much variation within that distance.
if you want company......
OOW
It would be a shame to rush the trip.
I think a 2.5 hour flight once every 3 days would maximize the experience of the trip and have you enjoying the different countries and cultures.
You are lucky to have so much variation within that distance.
if you want company......
OOW
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Exactly what's available to you does depend to a large degree on the weather you face. There are several passes through the Alps, with the one directly West of Turin being a good option (I've flown this in an R44). You will need to get up to 10000' AMSL to get over the Italian end, route past Chambéry on the French side. There are a number of friendly airfields in the South of France (who will also deal with passport stuff). You can then work your way North to Le Touqet (stopping as you wish/need), where you fuel up to hop the channel to Lydd. Then you route as necessary in the UK.
Alternately, you can route around the South coast, via Genoa, Nice, Cannes, etc. This route is much less weather dependant, but I believe landing fees etc. on the South coast are steep. Once you're around the Alps, route through France as above.
Dunno about the N-reg part, tho; are you planning to move it to the G register? If so, it might make life easier to get it done before you fly back, if at all possible. Alternately, it may be easier if you hold a FAA license. No doubt, someone who actually knows about N-reg machines in Europe will chime in shortly
For reference, Denham - Lydd - S.France (can't remember which airfield) - Alps - Turin is about 5 hours flight in an R44, with perfect weather. Can be done in a day when you include fuel/paperwork stops.
Alternately, you can route around the South coast, via Genoa, Nice, Cannes, etc. This route is much less weather dependant, but I believe landing fees etc. on the South coast are steep. Once you're around the Alps, route through France as above.
Dunno about the N-reg part, tho; are you planning to move it to the G register? If so, it might make life easier to get it done before you fly back, if at all possible. Alternately, it may be easier if you hold a FAA license. No doubt, someone who actually knows about N-reg machines in Europe will chime in shortly
For reference, Denham - Lydd - S.France (can't remember which airfield) - Alps - Turin is about 5 hours flight in an R44, with perfect weather. Can be done in a day when you include fuel/paperwork stops.
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Hi
I would not take a 47 over the Alps even in good weather.. 60/70kts top IAS and a good headwind will see you running out of landing options and fuel fairly quickly
I would say the coastal route via Genoa and Monaco/Nice is a lot better and safer; If you are concerned about landing fees, then forget about buying a heli in the first place
Have a safe flight
WLM
I would not take a 47 over the Alps even in good weather.. 60/70kts top IAS and a good headwind will see you running out of landing options and fuel fairly quickly
I would say the coastal route via Genoa and Monaco/Nice is a lot better and safer; If you are concerned about landing fees, then forget about buying a heli in the first place
Have a safe flight
WLM
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Y ou don't need to go to 10,000' to cross the Alps. The Gt St Bernard between Aosta and Sion is 8100 tho Sion was a hideous ripoff last time I went through - handling mandatory due to a 50m walk across the apron! Can't imagine either how passports come into it if the route is Italy - France but maybe being a B47 there's a 30year time-warp involved too.
The most direct route is via the Gt St Bernard, about 650 miles to London, 12hrs realistically. The coastal route another 150, perhaps a bit less.
Weather is indeed the major factor esp in something as slow as that - very careful planning and met availability (with regard to winds aloft over the Alpine stages) will be needed. The Alps aren't a small undertaking in a turbine helo, let alone a clockwork mouse. The low coastal route is likely to be costly as suggested but there must be little club fields en route, those are the ones to use but you'll have to research whether helos are allowed and if fuel is available to visitors, plus how to pay. Don't assume credit cards work at club fields. Avoid places like Cannes unless you're made of money. The Mistral can blow for days at a time and will reduce a B47s groundspeed to between 30mph (if blowing gently) and zero.
The first thing you'll need is set of charts and a Guide Delage to identify your fuel stops in France plus equivalent guides/info for Italy and Switzerland if you think of going that way. Then you'll have some idea how to do it.
Sounds like fun. Need a nav?
The most direct route is via the Gt St Bernard, about 650 miles to London, 12hrs realistically. The coastal route another 150, perhaps a bit less.
Weather is indeed the major factor esp in something as slow as that - very careful planning and met availability (with regard to winds aloft over the Alpine stages) will be needed. The Alps aren't a small undertaking in a turbine helo, let alone a clockwork mouse. The low coastal route is likely to be costly as suggested but there must be little club fields en route, those are the ones to use but you'll have to research whether helos are allowed and if fuel is available to visitors, plus how to pay. Don't assume credit cards work at club fields. Avoid places like Cannes unless you're made of money. The Mistral can blow for days at a time and will reduce a B47s groundspeed to between 30mph (if blowing gently) and zero.
The first thing you'll need is set of charts and a Guide Delage to identify your fuel stops in France plus equivalent guides/info for Italy and Switzerland if you think of going that way. Then you'll have some idea how to do it.
Sounds like fun. Need a nav?
47 beauty
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Don't know whether this is of any use to you but i flew with 3 other helicopters back in 2006 from germany to venice and on our way south we did cross the alps at Splügen Pass towards lake como (2x R44, 1x EC120, 1x AS350). We planned to refuel at Bergamo but were too late for AvGas (supplied from a local Aeroclub) so refuelled only Jet-A1 and went to Cremona (LILR) - a very small field from a local aeroclub nearby. VERY friendly and REALLY helpful .... maybe because it was the first (and last?) time they had 4 helicopters landing there at once. They even took photos for their local newspaper.
Edit:
Well, disregard the part about Cremona. Should have done some NAV research first
Edit:
Well, disregard the part about Cremona. Should have done some NAV research first
Last edited by Ready2Fly; 12th Dec 2011 at 15:02.
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Lots of willing volunteers 
if I was doing it...plan about 4 days in spring, 2hrs per leg..2 to 3 legs per day.
Coastal route then up through France would be nicest IMHO, but fuelling in France can be a pain....if money no object, get a small fuel truck to drive down and then follow you from Milan..it might be cheaper..not sure you can claim fuel drawback though when it goes on the ferry across to France ..but UK 100LL will be cheaper than on the continent.
if you use something like Flitestar, you can set speed, leg, etc., and drag the route between ADs to avoid high ground..drop me a PM and I'll do it for you next week when I am home if you like
if I was doing it...plan about 4 days in spring, 2hrs per leg..2 to 3 legs per day.
Coastal route then up through France would be nicest IMHO, but fuelling in France can be a pain....if money no object, get a small fuel truck to drive down and then follow you from Milan..it might be cheaper..not sure you can claim fuel drawback though when it goes on the ferry across to France
..but UK 100LL will be cheaper than on the continent.if you use something like Flitestar, you can set speed, leg, etc., and drag the route between ADs to avoid high ground..drop me a PM and I'll do it for you next week when I am home if you like
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the advice so far. I live in Glasgow so it will be based as close to there as possible. I was hoping,subject to a good report from my engineer, to get it over sooner rather than later but do take on board all the concerns re the weather
. Perhaps the Coastal route would be safer or stick it in a crate but where's the fun in that!!!!
. Perhaps the Coastal route would be safer or stick it in a crate but where's the fun in that!!!!
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when it goes on the ferry across to France
I'd have thought any hassle (why?) refuelling in france would pale into insignificance compared to the the grief you'd get trying to take our own bowser onto their airfields and refuelling yoursef. Jeez - they'd go nuts and rightly so too! You wouldn't dream of doing that here, would you?
And what's special about spring? If you're avoiding wind you want stable high presssure and that isn't springtime, is it? Winter or late summer/early autumn I'd have thought. All you need is just one of those wonderful gin clear flat calm perfect skiing days to get you over the mountains and you're into the valleys on the N or W side of the Alps and that's the trickiest bit over. But if you haven't had mountain training I'd leave the Alps alone in such a machine even in those conditions. But then by far the worst turbulence I have ever encountered was on the coast near Marseille and it dam near overwhelmed us in a Gazelle. Utterly terrifying.
I don't know about computerised planning either, I'd be happier doing the work myself and getting a proper feel for the route and everything around it. In a 60mph machine wind is a serious influence. A 2 hr leg can be anything between 80 and 160 miles with just a moderate 20Kt breeze aloft, diversions, bolt holes and crit points are going to be needed, plus a healthy awareness of the effects of changing groundspeed on your CP. Planning by machine will only distance you from the reality of all this.
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I wouldn't recommend putting it in a box. I've done that with 47 g5a twice and each time been fleeced by handling agents. Far more fun to fly!
However, if you must ... A 47g5a and probably all the models will go into a 40foot high top if you do the following......
Weld up some alloy tubes to make a mini set of skids. Same diameter as orig skids or close to. A local fabricator should do that for $500.
My 47 has a wet sump and I had to make the mini skids low enough to get the sump plug 3mm off the ground. Lift entire helicopter from jesus nut eye to remove skids. Fit your ground handling wheels to the mini skids using brackets from original skids. Easy!
Remove head with blades attached. Winch it tail first into the container. The mast will clear the container top with 3mm spare. Bolt skids down with angle brackets and coach bolts.
Detach blades and lay on carpet under the heli.
Easy peasy. Do pay for shipping insurance as containers do get dropped or lost overboard.
5 hour reassembly.
However, if you must ... A 47g5a and probably all the models will go into a 40foot high top if you do the following......
Weld up some alloy tubes to make a mini set of skids. Same diameter as orig skids or close to. A local fabricator should do that for $500.
My 47 has a wet sump and I had to make the mini skids low enough to get the sump plug 3mm off the ground. Lift entire helicopter from jesus nut eye to remove skids. Fit your ground handling wheels to the mini skids using brackets from original skids. Easy!
Remove head with blades attached. Winch it tail first into the container. The mast will clear the container top with 3mm spare. Bolt skids down with angle brackets and coach bolts.
Detach blades and lay on carpet under the heli.
Easy peasy. Do pay for shipping insurance as containers do get dropped or lost overboard.
5 hour reassembly.
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...
Hi BVGS
I’d suggest you rent a local (Italian) car and a LOCAL instructor who has logged plenty of trips over the Alps. Get your volunteer nav assistant (a couple on here already) to drive the rental car to the first fuel stop the other side the Alps. You and the local instructor fly the machine over the mtns when you/he/she feels the wx is good enough and then the local flight instructor drives the rental back and returns it to the rental outfit. You get the advantage of local knowledge and a much more relaxed flight (photo op) and you might learn a trick or two. A days pay for a local instructor is not too onerous a burden for the benefit it brings! Then you and the Nav have a nice trip home from there without any stress.
Another option is to trailer the machine home. I don’t know any rule to prevent it but we’re talking Europe where the governments are here to protect you at all costs ;-).
I have trailered Lamas’ and B205/214s’over most of the US back in the days when saving on ferry costs seemed to matter. Doesn’t have to be a major design event, we used a $1200 (2nd hand) lightly sprung single axle gooseneck (dual wheels which we later replaced with single wheels to improve the ride) and a ¾ ton chevvy as tow veh with a motorhome following behind as crew accommodation.
Fly the helo onto the trailer; throw (lift gently) the blades into a homemade bladebox along the side. Get to where you want to fly and throw the blades back on and fly it off the trailer.
One time when lifting HVACs’ onto a roof in Iowa, the wx was bad for 3 days with heavy snow and we couldn’t have got to the jobsite by flying in. We parked our little circus alongside the job and flew 40+ units between squalls. Packed up and on our way to the next job thru ¼ mile vis and snowing sideways. We spent an entire winter doing this as work was scarce at the time, and we had debts to pay. But it turned into a great time for me and the A&P and we made a ton of dough that would have been in someone else’s account if we hadn’t gotten after it!
Trailering has long since fallen from favor simply because clients now expect to pay large ferry costs (particularly in heavy lift external load work). But once you get set up it’s a no brainer and the trailer is a great asset to any small commercial operation. If I ever owned a light helicopter I’d look into the options in Euroland…Hell, for a private operation you could take the machine on vacation like a trailer-sailer…But check local laws…
Congrats on the purchase if it goes ahead! You’ll love it!
ps...Just enter ' helicopter on trailer ' into google and you'll see various examples of helo-trailer rigs
I’d suggest you rent a local (Italian) car and a LOCAL instructor who has logged plenty of trips over the Alps. Get your volunteer nav assistant (a couple on here already) to drive the rental car to the first fuel stop the other side the Alps. You and the local instructor fly the machine over the mtns when you/he/she feels the wx is good enough and then the local flight instructor drives the rental back and returns it to the rental outfit. You get the advantage of local knowledge and a much more relaxed flight (photo op) and you might learn a trick or two. A days pay for a local instructor is not too onerous a burden for the benefit it brings! Then you and the Nav have a nice trip home from there without any stress.
Another option is to trailer the machine home. I don’t know any rule to prevent it but we’re talking Europe where the governments are here to protect you at all costs ;-).
I have trailered Lamas’ and B205/214s’over most of the US back in the days when saving on ferry costs seemed to matter. Doesn’t have to be a major design event, we used a $1200 (2nd hand) lightly sprung single axle gooseneck (dual wheels which we later replaced with single wheels to improve the ride) and a ¾ ton chevvy as tow veh with a motorhome following behind as crew accommodation.
Fly the helo onto the trailer; throw (lift gently) the blades into a homemade bladebox along the side. Get to where you want to fly and throw the blades back on and fly it off the trailer.
One time when lifting HVACs’ onto a roof in Iowa, the wx was bad for 3 days with heavy snow and we couldn’t have got to the jobsite by flying in. We parked our little circus alongside the job and flew 40+ units between squalls. Packed up and on our way to the next job thru ¼ mile vis and snowing sideways. We spent an entire winter doing this as work was scarce at the time, and we had debts to pay. But it turned into a great time for me and the A&P and we made a ton of dough that would have been in someone else’s account if we hadn’t gotten after it!
Trailering has long since fallen from favor simply because clients now expect to pay large ferry costs (particularly in heavy lift external load work). But once you get set up it’s a no brainer and the trailer is a great asset to any small commercial operation. If I ever owned a light helicopter I’d look into the options in Euroland…Hell, for a private operation you could take the machine on vacation like a trailer-sailer…But check local laws…
Congrats on the purchase if it goes ahead! You’ll love it!
ps...Just enter ' helicopter on trailer ' into google and you'll see various examples of helo-trailer rigs
Last edited by 170'; 13th Dec 2011 at 12:25.
So far it seems '170 has the best idea so far.
Granted....flying the old darling home is the right way despite the things that argue against it. Bell 47's have been doing mountain flying since they first appeared on the aviation scene (the Bell's that is....). Following a road through a high mountain pass is not all that hard....minding the wires and masts and such. Yes it can get windy and bumpy....but at least you should be able to pick your day with some leisure.
I would pick the lowest, most flat, widest open Pass possible....and look for the least amount of mountainous terrain for that part of the trip.
English Channel water is pretty cold this time of the year is it not? I bet it is colder than the bottled water sold in the Ferry Bar!
Granted....flying the old darling home is the right way despite the things that argue against it. Bell 47's have been doing mountain flying since they first appeared on the aviation scene (the Bell's that is....). Following a road through a high mountain pass is not all that hard....minding the wires and masts and such. Yes it can get windy and bumpy....but at least you should be able to pick your day with some leisure.
I would pick the lowest, most flat, widest open Pass possible....and look for the least amount of mountainous terrain for that part of the trip.
English Channel water is pretty cold this time of the year is it not? I bet it is colder than the bottled water sold in the Ferry Bar!
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I'd have thought any hassle (why?) refuelling in france would pale into insignificance compared to the the grief you'd get trying to take our own bowser onto their airfields and refuelling yoursef. Jeez - they'd go nuts and rightly so too! You wouldn't dream of doing that here, would you?
..and it is a helicopter, so doesn't need a runway necessarily..maybe just a friendly farmers field
Careful planning and contacting fields ahead of time is obviously good practice. In the past I have done just that for long trips - so they know I am coming.
2 hrs leg ...based on B47D1 (29 Gallons useable) endurance (bladder and numb bum endurance of pilot), with 1 hr safety...I would obviously expect that you would either adjust the leg or wait if conditions were unsuitable (wx/wind, etc.) for the flight.
I fly fixed wing IFR so use Jeppview for my IFR flight planning and then plot Aerads or Jepp charts. I use Flitestar for initial VFR flight planning and routing; and then plot the route on charts to verify for obstacles, frequencies, etc.
..anyhow..agree with 170 and SASless, trailering is 'best' way...though won't be as much fun
Blue Skies all!
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Silverback, I hope you are being tongue in cheek about the farmers field too, though there is no indication of that. Poor idea in France unless you've waited months and months for your helisurface permit from the local prefecture - or have you just not operated helos there?
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Having done the run many times in various machines, including wee pistons, I suggest;
1) take plenty of cash for AVGAS, quite a few airfields won't take credit cards.
2) take the scenic route along the Riviera initially, maybe stop at Monaco Helipad (no AVGAS but worth a visit for novelty value). Maybe stop at Portofino for lunch (PM for nearby private landing site details)
3) From Cannes head off to one of several airfields to the NW - that way you can choose to enjoy the mountain passes by keeping Eish or steer more Wish to avoid if the weather is not conducive.
4) Try to visit Tarare (w of Lyon, LFHV) (contact Patrick, VERY helpful and speaks English) for an overnight stop. Tarare is the home of the Beaujolais Heli-club (two of my favourite words in one name!!) The Chateau de Bagnols around the corner is fantastic and they'll pick you up from the airfield so you don't need a Helisurface permit.
5) Albenga, Dijon Longvic, Valence, Avignon, Castellet, Soissons, Albert, Reims Prunay, Le Touquet also very helpful. They pretty much all close the fuel station for lunch and they will not open even if you beg! (I have tried the begging - and bribery to no avail!)
6) If you've got time to wait for a Helisurface permit, drop me a PM and I'll send you the free, yes free, form. (Maybe you already have the permit.)
In that case also get the Relais&Chateaux Hotel guide which gives you their hotel helipad details and co-ordinates.
7) DO learn the few French words and phrases you'll need to visit the smaller French speaking airfields. (see any of the French "Pooleys" equivalents). If you stick to just the English speaking airfields you'll miss some real gems and characters - they're sure to make you even more welcome in the '47.
8) Do make sure your paperwork is in order and presentable - you're quite likely to be asked for it on the N-reg.
1) take plenty of cash for AVGAS, quite a few airfields won't take credit cards.
2) take the scenic route along the Riviera initially, maybe stop at Monaco Helipad (no AVGAS but worth a visit for novelty value). Maybe stop at Portofino for lunch (PM for nearby private landing site details)
3) From Cannes head off to one of several airfields to the NW - that way you can choose to enjoy the mountain passes by keeping Eish or steer more Wish to avoid if the weather is not conducive.
4) Try to visit Tarare (w of Lyon, LFHV) (contact Patrick, VERY helpful and speaks English) for an overnight stop. Tarare is the home of the Beaujolais Heli-club (two of my favourite words in one name!!) The Chateau de Bagnols around the corner is fantastic and they'll pick you up from the airfield so you don't need a Helisurface permit.
5) Albenga, Dijon Longvic, Valence, Avignon, Castellet, Soissons, Albert, Reims Prunay, Le Touquet also very helpful. They pretty much all close the fuel station for lunch and they will not open even if you beg! (I have tried the begging - and bribery to no avail!)
6) If you've got time to wait for a Helisurface permit, drop me a PM and I'll send you the free, yes free, form. (Maybe you already have the permit.)
In that case also get the Relais&Chateaux Hotel guide which gives you their hotel helipad details and co-ordinates.
7) DO learn the few French words and phrases you'll need to visit the smaller French speaking airfields. (see any of the French "Pooleys" equivalents). If you stick to just the English speaking airfields you'll miss some real gems and characters - they're sure to make you even more welcome in the '47.
8) Do make sure your paperwork is in order and presentable - you're quite likely to be asked for it on the N-reg.
Last edited by feathering tickles; 13th Dec 2011 at 17:10.
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Silverback, I hope you are being tongue in cheek about the farmers field too, though there is no indication of that. Poor idea in France unless you've waited months and months for your helisurface permit from the local prefecture - or have you just not operated helos there?
I could easily add negative, exacting commentary to threads..but to what end?
...maybe you should have fun flyers excluded from the forum?
Rather than post again (Ab)...PM me so that we can meet F2F and have a chat over a beer.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all this useful information and I agree....let's not get negative. I am today trying to fix a date for my engineers inspection next week. So fingers crossed. A trailer sounds interesting if the flying is going to be problematic but really do fancy giving it ago. Any other comments (positive) please keep them coming. Thanks again.
Weigh the enjoyment and the costs.... to the trailering....depending upon the depth of yer wallet....and time available to devote to the trip (either method)...then make your decision.
Life without a bit of adventure is boring....but we have to be realistic about it.
After all....it is not like this is a Lindbergh/Bleriot trip all rolled up in one! Tap the knowledge of those that have done similar trips in Italy and France...and draw upon their experience.
Post the photos when you get done!
Life without a bit of adventure is boring....but we have to be realistic about it.
After all....it is not like this is a Lindbergh/Bleriot trip all rolled up in one! Tap the knowledge of those that have done similar trips in Italy and France...and draw upon their experience.
Post the photos when you get done!
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btw ... the flight to venice was in the beginning of June ... i am not sure whether i wanted to take the same route now but as many people already mentioned, a few days with a high pressure area in winter can give you perfect conditions.
This is after we passed Splügen Pass going south:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292...ml#post3543524
This is after we passed Splügen Pass going south:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292...ml#post3543524