Man dies after yobs stop air ambulance landing
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Chopjock :
I called them murdering scum and you said :
You might think it's a little harsh but I don't. I take it that in the world you inhabit it's OK to shine lasers at a police helicopter and risk the lives of the occupants and people on the ground?
Torquetalk :
Wrong. I have seen - first hand - the conditions at some so-called prisons in the UK, not as a prisoner by the way, and bearing in mind the 'homes' they come from, prison is a luxury holiday for them.
I called them murdering scum and you said :
That's a little harsh I think. Yobs are more likely to be rebellious and perhaps did not think this was an air ambulance operating at night. To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter (flir on the nose) and so an opportunity to get their own back.
Murderers? I don't think so.
Murderers? I don't think so.
Torquetalk :
Capetonian, I'm afraid I mean contributors like you. .......... Intellectual and emotional incontinence is harder to treat, but ...........knowing at least a little about what your talking about helps. Before repeating a popular mantra of how cushy gaol is, spend some time in a few of them. Only people who have little or no experience of prison think it's cushy. I am afraid you are typing through your butt.
Well, Capetonian, I guess you are living proof that you could send an a badly informed astronaut to the moon and they would still come back thinking it was made of cheese.
I have been inside many jails in many places, and suspect have a much more intimate knowledge of both those environments and their guests than you. That you make the correct point that some prisoners come from enviroments which are worse than the ones they find themselves in during custody, but imply that the prison environment should be made WORSE to to act as a deterrent is breathtaking in its stupidity.
Your lay opinion of the issues flies in the face of reality: Sweden, for example, has rather good conditions for prisoners when compared to the UK. It also has much lower levels of offending and recidivism. No particular conclusion can be drawn from this other than that awful prison conditions (which abound in UK prisons) are not only manifeslty counter-productive with respect to effective rehabilitation, there is also no demonstrable or believable case for them serving the purpose of deterrence.
And not wishing to hijack Chopjock's discussion with you, but let's be clear about a couple of things here: NO-ONE has been killed as a result of a laser being pointed in the crews' eyes. So there cannot be any killers. And even if there were; they would only be murderers if they deliberately set out to kill someone. That is murder. Otherwise they would be charged with manslaughter. Chopjock is right and you are talking rubbish.
I have been inside many jails in many places, and suspect have a much more intimate knowledge of both those environments and their guests than you. That you make the correct point that some prisoners come from enviroments which are worse than the ones they find themselves in during custody, but imply that the prison environment should be made WORSE to to act as a deterrent is breathtaking in its stupidity.
Your lay opinion of the issues flies in the face of reality: Sweden, for example, has rather good conditions for prisoners when compared to the UK. It also has much lower levels of offending and recidivism. No particular conclusion can be drawn from this other than that awful prison conditions (which abound in UK prisons) are not only manifeslty counter-productive with respect to effective rehabilitation, there is also no demonstrable or believable case for them serving the purpose of deterrence.
And not wishing to hijack Chopjock's discussion with you, but let's be clear about a couple of things here: NO-ONE has been killed as a result of a laser being pointed in the crews' eyes. So there cannot be any killers. And even if there were; they would only be murderers if they deliberately set out to kill someone. That is murder. Otherwise they would be charged with manslaughter. Chopjock is right and you are talking rubbish.
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There is less crime and reoffending in Sweden because, unlike the UK, there has not been a total breakdown in morals and family values. Also, although Sweden has more than its fair share of immigrants from the third world, it applies a selective policy and tends to accept more educated people who will integrate, and are encouraged to do so, not the dross who are allowed into the UK, live in ghettos, and are the cause of a lot of crime.
I can't comment on your superior experience of the prison environment as I have no idea what it is, but then you have no idea of mine. My comment is based on what I've seen. I subscribe to the theory that prison should be punishment, and that the kid gloves approach and rehabilitation usually do not work on hardened criminals. But then I also believe in the death penalty for violent repeat criminals and you probably don't.
You and chopjock are correct about my inappropriate use of the word 'murderers'. That does not detract from the contention that deliberately endangering the lives of aircrew is a serious offence and should be treated accordingly. I hope it will be.
I can't comment on your superior experience of the prison environment as I have no idea what it is, but then you have no idea of mine. My comment is based on what I've seen. I subscribe to the theory that prison should be punishment, and that the kid gloves approach and rehabilitation usually do not work on hardened criminals. But then I also believe in the death penalty for violent repeat criminals and you probably don't.
You and chopjock are correct about my inappropriate use of the word 'murderers'. That does not detract from the contention that deliberately endangering the lives of aircrew is a serious offence and should be treated accordingly. I hope it will be.
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TT
Because I considered the news item deserved a thread of its own. ie Because it was an air ambulance.
I'm sure the Mod will merge it into the main thread on l@sers and helicopters if/when he feels it appropriate.
Did I?
I used the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald headline as my thread title; I would do so again. I also posted a link to the BBC news item. I have no reason to believe the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald is a “crappy source”. Perhaps you'd prefer the Daily Mirror: Dying man's 999 helicopter forced to abort landing because of lasers - mirror.co.uk
Whether the patient died as a result is not the point. The point is that yobs shone lasers at an air ambulance. The patient may well have died anyway, but they didn't know nor care.
‘Bollocks’ in your opinion.
That is simply not correct.
That assertion is breathtaking in its arrogance. It also ignores the fact that informed opinion is, and has been for many years, divided on the issue.
You refer to Capetonian’s “lay opinion”. On what basis are your own opinions more than “lay”?
You say you have been inside many jails in many places. In what capacity?
In a previous thread Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance you said: “Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups.”
Is it your belief that people who point lasers at helicopters (air ambulance or other) necessarily fall into either or both of those groups?
H.
Tbh Heliport, I don't know why you started this thread.
I'm sure the Mod will merge it into the main thread on l@sers and helicopters if/when he feels it appropriate.
You set out to imply that the man's death was caused by the yobs stopping the helicopter landing, but apart from the selective use of a crappy source there doesn't seem to be much evidence at this stage for that.
I used the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald headline as my thread title; I would do so again. I also posted a link to the BBC news item. I have no reason to believe the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald is a “crappy source”. Perhaps you'd prefer the Daily Mirror: Dying man's 999 helicopter forced to abort landing because of lasers - mirror.co.uk
Whether the patient died as a result is not the point. The point is that yobs shone lasers at an air ambulance. The patient may well have died anyway, but they didn't know nor care.
I just don't see the value in giving a platform here for talking bollocks about something which is clearly very serious.
Only people who have little or no experience of prison think it's cushy.
(To) imply that the prison environment should be made WORSE to to act as a deterrent is breathtaking in its stupidity.
You refer to Capetonian’s “lay opinion”. On what basis are your own opinions more than “lay”?
You say you have been inside many jails in many places. In what capacity?
In a previous thread Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance you said: “Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups.”
Is it your belief that people who point lasers at helicopters (air ambulance or other) necessarily fall into either or both of those groups?
H.
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Having read a few of these 'yobs do unimaginable things' threads, I am always amused as the resident huggy fluffies jump to the defence of the poor underprivileged little darlings.
I was also amused at the inference that the tragic misunderstood young perpetrator had mis-identified the aircraft as a police helicopter and that this made his actions excusable.
There is no excuse for commiting a criminal offence and this 'person', if caught, should feel the full force of the law.
Unfortunately, and this is where I understand Capetonian's frustration, the full force of the law in this case would probably be a gentle slap on the wrist which sends out the signal to other yobs that this sort of behaviour is ok. I hope whoever it was that said no accident has ever occured because of shining a laser into a pilot's eyes, does not come back to haunt you. Having seen the effect of a green laser on NVGs whilst low level, I personally think a serious accident is only a matter of time.
I was also amused at the inference that the tragic misunderstood young perpetrator had mis-identified the aircraft as a police helicopter and that this made his actions excusable.
There is no excuse for commiting a criminal offence and this 'person', if caught, should feel the full force of the law.
Unfortunately, and this is where I understand Capetonian's frustration, the full force of the law in this case would probably be a gentle slap on the wrist which sends out the signal to other yobs that this sort of behaviour is ok. I hope whoever it was that said no accident has ever occured because of shining a laser into a pilot's eyes, does not come back to haunt you. Having seen the effect of a green laser on NVGs whilst low level, I personally think a serious accident is only a matter of time.
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That's a little harsh I think. Yobs are more likely to be rebellious and perhaps did not think this was an air ambulance operating at night. To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter (flir on the nose) and so an opportunity to get their own back.
Murderers? I don't think so.
Murderers? I don't think so.
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To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter ........ and so an opportunity to get their own back
I find the mentality underlying this statement utterly horrific.
In for a penny…
Well no actually, I wouldn’t. That would be swapping one crappy source for another. And unless, I wanted to get worked up about half a story that would be foolish. You may find the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald an eminent journalistic source, but I think the presentation of the article and the fact that they didn’t even spell hospital right suggest that it’s a rag.
My experience of prisons comes from working for the Home Office and (in a separate capacity) as a prison visitor. UK and elsewhere (Sweden and Turkey as examples of different ends of a spectrum of conditions).
No it isn’t. Popular opinion is largely undivided in thinking that prison sentences are too short and that prison isn’t hard enough. Informed opinion is largely unanimous in the opinion that the length of prison sentence has little or no bearing on either the intent to commit crime or recidivism rates; that body of opinion is also unanimous in recognising a positive relationship between better prison conditions and lower rates of recidivism. You don’t have to like that, but it isn’t an arguable point.
As to arrogance, ask yourself this: If you saw that prison conditions were better than the environments in which people were committing offences, would you not draw the conclusion that something was amiss with those environments? To draw the opposite conclusion: i.e. that prison should be the locus of change would be stupid.
Let’s me be clear about what I think so you don’t have to speculate. In direct answer to your question: Not Necessarily, no; but I stand by the opinion as stated, as, quite frankly, I think it is a statement of the bleedin’ obvious. But of course I don’t disagree with the opinion that the laser-pointing scroats should be punished to the full extent of the law. Of course they should. And I really like the idea of reciprocal tasering of perpetrators.
Seriously though, do you really think there is any real prospect of change with regard to these kinds of offences given current social policy with top caliber leaders like:
David “love a hoody” Cameron (sorry, which planet are you from again?)
Gordon “make the UK the best country in the world for children” (same planet as the other fella I guess)
Tony “it was the ‘60s wot dun it” Blair (Germany and Sweden survived the ‘60s – very well in fact)
As Chirg says in No country For Old Men “If the plan was what brought you here, what use was the plan?”
Final post.
Perhaps you'd prefer the Daily Mirror
Well no actually, I wouldn’t. That would be swapping one crappy source for another. And unless, I wanted to get worked up about half a story that would be foolish. You may find the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald an eminent journalistic source, but I think the presentation of the article and the fact that they didn’t even spell hospital right suggest that it’s a rag.
You refer to Capetonian’s “lay opinion”. On what basis are your own opinions more than “lay”?
You say you have been inside many jails in many places. In what capacity?
My experience of prisons comes from working for the Home Office and (in a separate capacity) as a prison visitor. UK and elsewhere (Sweden and Turkey as examples of different ends of a spectrum of conditions).
informed opinion is, and has been for many years, divided on the issue
No it isn’t. Popular opinion is largely undivided in thinking that prison sentences are too short and that prison isn’t hard enough. Informed opinion is largely unanimous in the opinion that the length of prison sentence has little or no bearing on either the intent to commit crime or recidivism rates; that body of opinion is also unanimous in recognising a positive relationship between better prison conditions and lower rates of recidivism. You don’t have to like that, but it isn’t an arguable point.
As to arrogance, ask yourself this: If you saw that prison conditions were better than the environments in which people were committing offences, would you not draw the conclusion that something was amiss with those environments? To draw the opposite conclusion: i.e. that prison should be the locus of change would be stupid.
In a previous thread ‘Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance’ you said: “Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups.”
Is it your belief that people who point lasers at helicopters (air ambulance or other) necessarily fall into either or both of those groups?
Seriously though, do you really think there is any real prospect of change with regard to these kinds of offences given current social policy with top caliber leaders like:
David “love a hoody” Cameron (sorry, which planet are you from again?)
Gordon “make the UK the best country in the world for children” (same planet as the other fella I guess)
Tony “it was the ‘60s wot dun it” Blair (Germany and Sweden survived the ‘60s – very well in fact)
As Chirg says in No country For Old Men “If the plan was what brought you here, what use was the plan?”
Final post.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter ........ and so an opportunity to get their own back
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Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Next will be the case where the Crew/MRT Fire & Rescue get the patient to where the helicopter landed, only to find it's not there anymore !
Police say teen tried to steal hospital helicopter - Houston Chronicle
Flying lessons! Was that a Year 9 option ?
Police are accusing a teenager of trying to steal a medical helicopter shortly after it landed at Citizens Baptist Medical Center.
Talladega police Capt. of Investigations Ronnie Jones tells The Daily Home newspaper (The Daily Home - Teen tries to steal LifeSaver) that police arrested the 16-year-old.
An officer assigned to guard the chopper while the crew was inside the hospital getting a patient told police the teen approached the aircraft, opened the door and started to get in.
Authorities say the officer detained the teen before he was could sit down in the LifeSaver helicopter.
Police said the officer asked the teenager what he was doing, and he smiled and said that he had taken flying lessons at Zora Ellis Junior High School.
Talladega police Capt. of Investigations Ronnie Jones tells The Daily Home newspaper (The Daily Home - Teen tries to steal LifeSaver) that police arrested the 16-year-old.
An officer assigned to guard the chopper while the crew was inside the hospital getting a patient told police the teen approached the aircraft, opened the door and started to get in.
Authorities say the officer detained the teen before he was could sit down in the LifeSaver helicopter.
Police said the officer asked the teenager what he was doing, and he smiled and said that he had taken flying lessons at Zora Ellis Junior High School.
Flying lessons! Was that a Year 9 option ?
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Hmm, interesting comments. I for one favour zero tolerence approach so that we begin to instill within our society that there will be severe consequeces for such life threatening behaviour, what would have happened IF the pilot lost control and crashed!!!!!
Our ambulance & fire crews seem to be fair game for these mindless boneheads. Lets hope the next Chief Constable is not afraid of the Human Rights brigade. Would be interesting to hear what the view is from the States, New York underwent a major clear up of crime, whereby it was not that long ago that tourists would not venture into certain parts of the City.
Our ambulance & fire crews seem to be fair game for these mindless boneheads. Lets hope the next Chief Constable is not afraid of the Human Rights brigade. Would be interesting to hear what the view is from the States, New York underwent a major clear up of crime, whereby it was not that long ago that tourists would not venture into certain parts of the City.
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Ummm. (Holds Hand up). Why for did he land and take off again to burn off fuel. Was he over weight or was it a C of G issue?
Something not quite right about that.
Non pilot by the way.
Something not quite right about that.
Non pilot by the way.
Chief Bottle Washer
Nonetheless, to answer your query about why he may need to burn off fuel, it would have been a weight issue when picking up casualty and medical crew had it been needed.
