Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
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MG - strange comment - not sure what it is you think I think about this - so just to be clear:
The video is a useful version of an old text version of the same - we used to post it prominently on the notice board. It is only a BASIC MINIMUM element of understanding.
It represents the education required by all VMC pilots as to WHY they should want to not become IMC.
It does not deal with the HOW part. It has limited use, in that it condescendingly presumes that the pilot's who kill themselves (or are destined to kill themselves) do not already know that they should avoid the IMC state which they are incapable of handling - whereas (tragically) they are often highly conscientious individuals who have been attempting to use selection of good weather to stay VMC but were (are) incapable of remaining VMC when judgement, skill and experience is required.
Helicopter pilots must be able to control their aircraft so that they NEVER lose the Visual References required to control their aircraft. They should not view Instrument Reference Flight as the solution to the possible loss of Refs. since it diminishes the more important imperative that they remain VMC. Although of course it is very good for their flying and comprehension of flight to be proficient at IRF in an unstabilised machine (current training does not achieve this since the foggles used permits sight of outside references serving to give the pilot the impression that he can perform IRF when in fact he cannot).
Mighty Gem - do you disagree with any of that? Anyone disagree with that?
(Hillberg - danger - I don't think you intend it but you give the impression that a pilot in bad weather should not descend and slow to remain visual but should deliberately climb and become IMC - whereas I think you are really saying that if they have already become IMC they should not descend and risk hitting the ground ahead - true?)
The video is a useful version of an old text version of the same - we used to post it prominently on the notice board. It is only a BASIC MINIMUM element of understanding.
It represents the education required by all VMC pilots as to WHY they should want to not become IMC.
It does not deal with the HOW part. It has limited use, in that it condescendingly presumes that the pilot's who kill themselves (or are destined to kill themselves) do not already know that they should avoid the IMC state which they are incapable of handling - whereas (tragically) they are often highly conscientious individuals who have been attempting to use selection of good weather to stay VMC but were (are) incapable of remaining VMC when judgement, skill and experience is required.
Helicopter pilots must be able to control their aircraft so that they NEVER lose the Visual References required to control their aircraft. They should not view Instrument Reference Flight as the solution to the possible loss of Refs. since it diminishes the more important imperative that they remain VMC. Although of course it is very good for their flying and comprehension of flight to be proficient at IRF in an unstabilised machine (current training does not achieve this since the foggles used permits sight of outside references serving to give the pilot the impression that he can perform IRF when in fact he cannot).
Mighty Gem - do you disagree with any of that? Anyone disagree with that?
(Hillberg - danger - I don't think you intend it but you give the impression that a pilot in bad weather should not descend and slow to remain visual but should deliberately climb and become IMC - whereas I think you are really saying that if they have already become IMC they should not descend and risk hitting the ground ahead - true?)
Last edited by AnFI; 30th May 2012 at 15:40. Reason: spelling :)
a vague feeling that something is wrong, scanning the text but losing reference, no horizon in sight... am I IIMC? No. Just reading another AnFI post (fool me). 
AnFI you are a master of obfuscation and a troll.
Pilots have and will continue to go IIMC, with or without training, in unstabilsed and stabilised machines, with and without AFCS, IR and non-IR qualified. Been there several times under different circumstances, and it will doubtless happen to me again. The obsessive focus on prevention or "maintaining visual references" is complete nonsense - as is the argument that elemental instrument training is harmful and increases risk-taking - that is a question of dangerous attitudes (which, as an FI, you should know).
And my 2 pence worth for the general discussion re. going IIMC is to for fly the aircraft above all else. Get level and stable before turning, talking, climbing or doing anything else. Then you can figure out what might be the best next step.
AnFI you are a master of obfuscation and a troll.
Pilots have and will continue to go IIMC, with or without training, in unstabilsed and stabilised machines, with and without AFCS, IR and non-IR qualified. Been there several times under different circumstances, and it will doubtless happen to me again. The obsessive focus on prevention or "maintaining visual references" is complete nonsense - as is the argument that elemental instrument training is harmful and increases risk-taking - that is a question of dangerous attitudes (which, as an FI, you should know).
And my 2 pence worth for the general discussion re. going IIMC is to for fly the aircraft above all else. Get level and stable before turning, talking, climbing or doing anything else. Then you can figure out what might be the best next step.
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AnFI, Spot on,
Inadvertant IMC. is just that.
At nite / spotty weather you can pop in the thick of it, What happens is loss of control or skud running,
Going low gets you dead, Wires,solid clouds, antennas ,buildings. Just be off a few feet & bang your bugg splatter.
IFR / IMC are two different animals.
Dug through what was left of the poor sods that thought they could make it low & slow.
Inadvertant IMC. is just that. At nite / spotty weather you can pop in the thick of it, What happens is loss of control or skud running, Going low gets you dead, Wires,solid clouds, antennas ,buildings. Just be off a few feet & bang your bugg splatter.IFR / IMC are two different animals.
Dug through what was left of the poor sods that thought they could make it low & slow.
Avoid imitations
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Having been trained by the RAF at a very early stage to fly IMC on unstabilised helicopters I am of the opinion that an immediate 180 degree turn in IMC is far from a good idea. Very conducive to the leans and loss of control may quickly result, especially when the adrenaline kicks in and causes overcontrolling.
Controlling the aircraft in a wings level, speed stable attitude and then descending in a straight line by positively lowering the collective is far easier and less likely to lead to spatial disorientation. This technique has certainly saved my bacon on a few occasions.
Obviously, it cannot be used if an obstruction or terrain is an issue so experience has taught me to keep an escape route in mind whenever the weather is marginal. Sometimes that escape route involves not taking off in the first place, despite me being IR trained and flying a well equipped single pilot IFR machine. If in doubt, chicken out!
Controlling the aircraft in a wings level, speed stable attitude and then descending in a straight line by positively lowering the collective is far easier and less likely to lead to spatial disorientation. This technique has certainly saved my bacon on a few occasions.
Obviously, it cannot be used if an obstruction or terrain is an issue so experience has taught me to keep an escape route in mind whenever the weather is marginal. Sometimes that escape route involves not taking off in the first place, despite me being IR trained and flying a well equipped single pilot IFR machine. If in doubt, chicken out!
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TT: Spot the logic 
AND
- the first makes statement makes the second true - yes you are right - it will happen to you again - are you pleased about that?
We are talking INADVERTENT here - how inadvertent do you think it's ok to be whilst flying?
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a tree
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a hill, wire, cow, cloud, sea etc...
OOOps I inadvertently forgot to fly (doesn't matter Fully Stabilised)
... you are doing the wind-up - right?
prevention or "maintaining visual references" is complete nonsense
"will continue to go IIMC" "Been there several times" "it will doubtless happen to me again"
We are talking INADVERTENT here - how inadvertent do you think it's ok to be whilst flying?
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a tree
OOOps I inadvertently flew into a hill, wire, cow, cloud, sea etc...
OOOps I inadvertently forgot to fly (doesn't matter Fully Stabilised)
... you are doing the wind-up - right?
If in doubt, chicken out!
Splot, PLEASE - hasn't this thread become the most tedious and exasperating in the history of PPRuNe?! We're in a loop; the entire rotary world vs. AnFI and it's likely to go on forever...
Can't we just agree to disagree, delete it and move on? There's nothing more to learn by persisting with this monotonous dialogue. If that's not possible, let's stop feeding the troll and maybe it'll go away
Chief Bottle Washer
CJ: I suppose another option not yet discussed is if in IIMC and hopelessly lost, rather than just give up and panic, keep the wings level on the AH, turn gently into wind, air speed to less than 40 Kts and slowly descend. I think the airframe is a little more stable in the descent, perhaps even an auto rotation with the needles joined. When you see the ground you will be less than 40 Kts ground speed and just need to flare.
I'll get my coat.
I'll get my coat.
Incredibly ignorant, dangerous and stupid. Troll.
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This thread should be required reading instead of foggles training - Certainly for Robinsons anyway. 
It seems there are two sides to this: those that want to stick to 'the book' and those, like me, (and AnFi?) who think 'the book' is flawed and will do what ever they think fit to not enter a cloud.
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. (Douglas Bader, British WWII air ace)
It seems there are two sides to this: those that want to stick to 'the book' and those, like me, (and AnFi?) who think 'the book' is flawed and will do what ever they think fit to not enter a cloud.
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. (Douglas Bader, British WWII air ace)
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Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. (Douglas Bader, British WWII air ace)
Good point ... I have to say he is not a name that would spring to mind !!! Reach for the Sky was a great film and he was a great pilot of sorts . My Godfather was senior officer in Colditz ( No ... Not German although his name was in fact ... German . ). He used to take Douglas down to the blacksmith to work on his legs and then fill them with cigarettes etc . He was apparently also unbelievably arrogant which would seem to be a recurrent theme in aviation ( avoidable ) accidents .
Has a rotary imc licence ever been considered ? That possibly combined with new generation autopilots ( retrofit ) could take a good number of pilots out of the pool for iifr ...... Just a thought as some of the new autopilots could be made for sensible price now .
Don't shoot .... I'm just asking !
Has a rotary imc licence ever been considered ? That possibly combined with new generation autopilots ( retrofit ) could take a good number of pilots out of the pool for iifr ...... Just a thought as some of the new autopilots could be made for sensible price now .
Don't shoot .... I'm just asking !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Chopjock
'Hello Pot, This is kettle', Radio Check Over !
So some one has a different opinion, discusses the other point of view and that make's them a troll?
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The section from the AAIB report that shouts out (to me) is:
"While helicopters have the ability to slow down, turn around or ‘land out’, there seems to be reluctance for pilots to make the decision in a timely manner to do either of these. A pilot’s ability to make a suitable decision to avoid DVE may decrease as the situation deteriorates and result in the helicopter unintentionally entering IMC."
As the consequence of inavertant IMC in a light, unstabalised VFR helicopter (such as I fly) is most likely death, this section of the AAIB report leads me to a simple checklist:
1. Set yourself minimum speed / clearance rules appropriate to your level of experience / aircraft
2. Do not bend these rules
3. Stay on the ground, reverse course, or land before you get to the limit of your rule
"While helicopters have the ability to slow down, turn around or ‘land out’, there seems to be reluctance for pilots to make the decision in a timely manner to do either of these. A pilot’s ability to make a suitable decision to avoid DVE may decrease as the situation deteriorates and result in the helicopter unintentionally entering IMC."
As the consequence of inavertant IMC in a light, unstabalised VFR helicopter (such as I fly) is most likely death, this section of the AAIB report leads me to a simple checklist:
1. Set yourself minimum speed / clearance rules appropriate to your level of experience / aircraft
2. Do not bend these rules
3. Stay on the ground, reverse course, or land before you get to the limit of your rule
Last edited by John R81; 31st May 2012 at 11:19.
Avoid imitations
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That's not a big problem if you have the choice to do so. But not in an unstabilised helicopter.
