Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
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So sad. But LOC in IMC is a tragically familiar scenario - and of course it's only a question of time before the next one happens.
Helinut is right here, some pilots are just too reluctant to put the thing down whilst visibility is good enough - and frankly it can be pretty poor to achieve this safely. I frequently wonder how inexperienced pilots can get into this situation - do they just not appreciate how bad the vis is and simply stumble into IMC at presumably low level, or are they knowingly taking huge risks pushing on, groping through the murk and trying to dodge around the lowest cloud and mist? The right approach is simple - fly lower and slower in order to maintain good ground reference until you need to land or turn back, possibly trying another lower route if it exists.
Pilots certainly need to be ready to land as soon as concern and doubt hits them - decision making will deteriorate rapidly from this point. Maybe training should include a number of simulated bad weather landings using pre-arranged farmers' fields known to the flying school? Agree with CF that IMC training is of limited benefit. If you get IMC when you should be VMC you are likely to be very low in mist and the chance of maintaining height accurately enough through a 180 deg turn on instruments to avoid hitting the ground is negligable. The 180 turn must be done earlier when still in albeit maybe poor VMC, and then to the right (assuming flying from RHS) and pilots trained to turn this way and get used to clinging to ground reference, even through the door window, because their lives DO depend on it. Teaching low level, tight turns like this would be more beneficial than turns on instruments in IMC, I feel.
The best instrument escape from inadvertent IMC entry at low level on flatish terrain is likely be a wings level steep climb to MSA and sort it out from there, but that's a whole different ball game and unlikely to be survived either by a non IR pilot.
But as has been said before, it's atttude that's the biggest issue and killer. Most of us fly in poor VMC weather from time to time and a very high level of judgement is required. Perhaps the best thing that should happen is that all students should have to read at least 10 LOC in IMC AAIB reports and maybe have detailed cause identication as an exam subject.
Helinut is right here, some pilots are just too reluctant to put the thing down whilst visibility is good enough - and frankly it can be pretty poor to achieve this safely. I frequently wonder how inexperienced pilots can get into this situation - do they just not appreciate how bad the vis is and simply stumble into IMC at presumably low level, or are they knowingly taking huge risks pushing on, groping through the murk and trying to dodge around the lowest cloud and mist? The right approach is simple - fly lower and slower in order to maintain good ground reference until you need to land or turn back, possibly trying another lower route if it exists.
Pilots certainly need to be ready to land as soon as concern and doubt hits them - decision making will deteriorate rapidly from this point. Maybe training should include a number of simulated bad weather landings using pre-arranged farmers' fields known to the flying school? Agree with CF that IMC training is of limited benefit. If you get IMC when you should be VMC you are likely to be very low in mist and the chance of maintaining height accurately enough through a 180 deg turn on instruments to avoid hitting the ground is negligable. The 180 turn must be done earlier when still in albeit maybe poor VMC, and then to the right (assuming flying from RHS) and pilots trained to turn this way and get used to clinging to ground reference, even through the door window, because their lives DO depend on it. Teaching low level, tight turns like this would be more beneficial than turns on instruments in IMC, I feel.
The best instrument escape from inadvertent IMC entry at low level on flatish terrain is likely be a wings level steep climb to MSA and sort it out from there, but that's a whole different ball game and unlikely to be survived either by a non IR pilot.
But as has been said before, it's atttude that's the biggest issue and killer. Most of us fly in poor VMC weather from time to time and a very high level of judgement is required. Perhaps the best thing that should happen is that all students should have to read at least 10 LOC in IMC AAIB reports and maybe have detailed cause identication as an exam subject.
At the risk of being hit by stones...my guess is that a mid air break up in IMC is more likely to happen on a semi-rigid rotor system. For one, having lost spacial awareness, if a pilot unknowingly flys a low G manoeuvre and ends up cutting off his tail boom or rotor mast...
Also there might be lots of bad things happening to a two-blade system when youve gone upside down in clouds...
Not saying that i want to be lost in cloud in an AS350, but it feels more recoverable from unusual attitudes and doesnt care much about being flown in low G conditions.
I totally agree on the need for more training in decision making when weather has gone bad. Instructors should actually go out flying with the students when reports tell you to reconsider, just to show them where the limits should be.
I am not saying every instructor should depart with his student in the worst weather possible, but to plan trips into an area with deteriorating weather to show them how things go worse and giving them the chance to make the decision on their own.
Ok, until here and no further! Can I circumnavigate this, am I going back or should I wait for things to clear up? Can I actually go back (weather, fuel, airfield closed)? Any airfield in the area or am I looking for a suitable field nearby? How and whome should I notify now? Will I get fired for this? <-- that last question should not pop into my mind right now!!!
The only task in my PPL/CPL training, apart from the IMC stuff was something called a "bad weather introduction" and that basically meant flying with grey clouds above my head and having "some" wind. Any common day in Germany or the UK then...
Also there might be lots of bad things happening to a two-blade system when youve gone upside down in clouds...
Not saying that i want to be lost in cloud in an AS350, but it feels more recoverable from unusual attitudes and doesnt care much about being flown in low G conditions.
I totally agree on the need for more training in decision making when weather has gone bad. Instructors should actually go out flying with the students when reports tell you to reconsider, just to show them where the limits should be.
I am not saying every instructor should depart with his student in the worst weather possible, but to plan trips into an area with deteriorating weather to show them how things go worse and giving them the chance to make the decision on their own.
Ok, until here and no further! Can I circumnavigate this, am I going back or should I wait for things to clear up? Can I actually go back (weather, fuel, airfield closed)? Any airfield in the area or am I looking for a suitable field nearby? How and whome should I notify now? Will I get fired for this? <-- that last question should not pop into my mind right now!!!
The only task in my PPL/CPL training, apart from the IMC stuff was something called a "bad weather introduction" and that basically meant flying with grey clouds above my head and having "some" wind. Any common day in Germany or the UK then...
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I've read several involving R22/R44 - eg Steve Hislop
INQUIRY UNDER THE FATAL ACCIDENTS AND SUDDEN DEATHS (SCOTLAND) ACT 1975 INTO THE SUDDEN DEATH OF ROBERT STEVEN HISLOP v. , 30 May 2008, Sheriff Principal E.F. Bowen
Now this may be due to the popularity of these helicopters with private users, or is it to do with the inherent limitations of the Robinson rotor system?
INQUIRY UNDER THE FATAL ACCIDENTS AND SUDDEN DEATHS (SCOTLAND) ACT 1975 INTO THE SUDDEN DEATH OF ROBERT STEVEN HISLOP v. , 30 May 2008, Sheriff Principal E.F. Bowen
Now this may be due to the popularity of these helicopters with private users, or is it to do with the inherent limitations of the Robinson rotor system?
Helinut -
Oh and we should immediately stop that pointless and dangerous "instrument flying" that is part of the standard syllabus. It says exactly the wrong thing to the student. And it simply does not equip them to go IMC, whilst pretending to them that it is possible. In practice, in a small unstabilised light helicopter almost no one will survive a real inadvertent IMC incident.
Oh and we should immediately stop that pointless and dangerous "instrument flying" that is part of the standard syllabus. It says exactly the wrong thing to the student. And it simply does not equip them to go IMC, whilst pretending to them that it is possible. In practice, in a small unstabilised light helicopter almost no one will survive a real inadvertent IMC incident.
When I did my ppl I was told - keep away from clouds!
It does seem since the introduction of the extra 5hrs 'instrument training' there has been more of these type of accidents but how can you campaign for less training
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obvious statement but- instrument flying is an extremely perishable skill, and as such has to be practised regularly. Instrument appreciation is just that ,an insight, nothing more.
I would suggest that the 'worst' part is the initial whiteout when you enter cloud,and its how you deal with it ,that matters because if you get that bit wrong then the rest is irrelavant.
Herein lies the problem as to go from happily flying along to into cloud straight onto instruments is very difficult if you are not practiced at it, and particularly in a small unstabilised aircraft.
The instrument appreciation whilst useful cannot prepare you for inadvertant IMC - and it should always be stressed that the best way of dealing with it is to make sure you dont get into it in the first place!Increasing the amount of IF flying for the grant of a PPl will not achieve much, except increasing the cost.
I would suggest that the 'worst' part is the initial whiteout when you enter cloud,and its how you deal with it ,that matters because if you get that bit wrong then the rest is irrelavant.
Herein lies the problem as to go from happily flying along to into cloud straight onto instruments is very difficult if you are not practiced at it, and particularly in a small unstabilised aircraft.
The instrument appreciation whilst useful cannot prepare you for inadvertant IMC - and it should always be stressed that the best way of dealing with it is to make sure you dont get into it in the first place!Increasing the amount of IF flying for the grant of a PPl will not achieve much, except increasing the cost.
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OK, keep instrument appreciation. But it should be just that, ie learning to use the instruments properly. Forget foggles, screens etc. They don't work, you pick up visual information around them even when you think you aren't, and they give students false confidence. How do you convince a student who's managing to do instrument flying really, really well, that he/she won't be able to do it for real? How do you tell them that real IMC is very different, when you just gave them the foggles so that they had a simulated IMC condition? "OK Bloggs, this is how you do it, but don't ever try it, because actually it's not at all like this. You did really well, and you'll pass your Skills Test, and you've learned how to do it, but now don't". Mixed messages or what!
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In training I was told to keep away from cloud, think of landing, etc. Instrument appreciation was flown (and I repeat this perhaps 4 times a year). But I set myself a rule that I have stuck with since: if I can't keep 500ft clear of the ground and 60kts airspeed due to viz I turn around or put it down and wait.
Perhaps the most valuable experience for me was when PUT type training on EC120 with a PPRUNE resident FI. Whilst away from base (instrument appreciation flying, as it happens) tower announced they were closing due to weather deterioration. We thought it best to abort training and see if we could return. We could not, and he took control and landed in a field, where we sat until things cleared enoughnto go home.
A practical demonstration in real circumstances is priceless!
To this day, when I fly with a safety pilot I am proud of the fact that I chicken out before they think things to be too difficult to go on. I intend to retain my status of being the coward of the pack because I will never accumulate the experience of these guys, so if they ever get worried I would be so far beyond my capabilities that without them I would certainly feature in the next AAIB report. They will not always be with me so I need to recognise when I approach (not reach) the edge of my competency.
John
Perhaps the most valuable experience for me was when PUT type training on EC120 with a PPRUNE resident FI. Whilst away from base (instrument appreciation flying, as it happens) tower announced they were closing due to weather deterioration. We thought it best to abort training and see if we could return. We could not, and he took control and landed in a field, where we sat until things cleared enoughnto go home.
A practical demonstration in real circumstances is priceless!
To this day, when I fly with a safety pilot I am proud of the fact that I chicken out before they think things to be too difficult to go on. I intend to retain my status of being the coward of the pack because I will never accumulate the experience of these guys, so if they ever get worried I would be so far beyond my capabilities that without them I would certainly feature in the next AAIB report. They will not always be with me so I need to recognise when I approach (not reach) the edge of my competency.
John
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but how can you campaign for less training
A recent experience drove this home (again). In a B407 recurrent training course the instructor announced in the preflight briefing for an FTD (Frasca Level 6) session that he would give me a scenario (a short trip) to fly and that somewhere enroute he would give me an IIMC situation that could not be corrected with a 180 deg turn. Furthermore, he stated that the entire area would go to low IFR and I would have to fly to an airport with an ILS and fly the approach. Gulp! During the initial part of the "trip" he introduced a few failures while still VMC which,in part, were designed to direct my attention away from the upcoming IIMC encounter. The IMC weather occurred suddenly and required flying for about 40 minutes in hard IMC before reaching the airport and flying the ILS to near minimums.
This worked out without calamity, but my heart rate was definitely elevated! I have an IR but am years out of currency. IMO, a pilot with only the minimum training could not have survived. Even with an IR, an unstabilized helicopter is no place to be in IMC, but one's odds of survival would seem to be greatly enhanced. I have recently installed a Cobham HeliSAS system in my helicopter. While not nearly as sophicticated as an SPIFR approved helicopter autopilot, it is cabable of flying a coupled approach with vertical guidance (ILS/LNAV-VNAV/LPV). It does this quite well and could well save the day in an IIMC situation. However, staying out of IMC is by far the best solution.
Last edited by EN48; 27th Jul 2011 at 18:42.
Absolutely right JohnR81.
I have twice been caught out by weather flying VFR. Once in North Wales when I saw cloud rolling over the ridgeline ahead of me.....a rapid turn in the valley and rerouting sorted that , and a second time when visibility just started vanishing in a heavy downpour and I put the helicopter down in a field and waited until it was over.Absolutely the right decision because when it cleared I saw pylons about half a mile ahead !
Why some pilots push on in a helicopter when it is so easy to land when you run into weather trouble I can never understand.
I have twice been caught out by weather flying VFR. Once in North Wales when I saw cloud rolling over the ridgeline ahead of me.....a rapid turn in the valley and rerouting sorted that , and a second time when visibility just started vanishing in a heavy downpour and I put the helicopter down in a field and waited until it was over.Absolutely the right decision because when it cleared I saw pylons about half a mile ahead !
Why some pilots push on in a helicopter when it is so easy to land when you run into weather trouble I can never understand.
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John
You hit the nail on the head. The training should focus on making that impromptu landing and getting that experience under your belt. Having done that at least 4 or 5 times in my career I can swear that the warm glow you feel looking up from a position where your feet are firmly on terra firma beats the hot sweat you felt moments before when you contemplated pushing on.
Maybe the CAA wont like me suggesting this but maybe we should substitute forced landing for the IMC training. It would shift the focus in the right direction even though there may be a few p***d off farmers, sports field owners and park administrators to cope with. A 'Code of Practice' should cover the training exercise but it is I believe a realistic step in the right direction.
G.
Maybe the CAA wont like me suggesting this but maybe we should substitute forced landing for the IMC training. It would shift the focus in the right direction even though there may be a few p***d off farmers, sports field owners and park administrators to cope with. A 'Code of Practice' should cover the training exercise but it is I believe a realistic step in the right direction.
G.
I agree with WH & 81.
Instrument Appreciation would be a better lesson name rather than the present.
In my job we rely on believing instruments\ test equipment (you cant see radio waves)
I do not question what I see on them, but with foggles on & not cheating I found it very difficult to believe what they were telling me & even harder to make the control movements required to keep flying as requested by instructor.
He kept repeating this is not instrument flying you will not be able to fly IFR it is a requirement of the licence at present.
His other mantra was if the weather deteriorates land or go back if safe, you are flying a helicopter find the field\airfield & land the old saying "better down here wishing etc" & we did a lot of landing out fields, forest clearings private roads.
"Land there" was a regular thing, followed by where's the wind? any wires noticed ? do a rece & put it down.
Being old & managing to stay alive this long I feel any help I can give god the better
that
Instrument Appreciation would be a better lesson name rather than the present.
In my job we rely on believing instruments\ test equipment (you cant see radio waves)
I do not question what I see on them, but with foggles on & not cheating I found it very difficult to believe what they were telling me & even harder to make the control movements required to keep flying as requested by instructor.
He kept repeating this is not instrument flying you will not be able to fly IFR it is a requirement of the licence at present.
His other mantra was if the weather deteriorates land or go back if safe, you are flying a helicopter find the field\airfield & land the old saying "better down here wishing etc" & we did a lot of landing out fields, forest clearings private roads.
"Land there" was a regular thing, followed by where's the wind? any wires noticed ? do a rece & put it down.
Being old & managing to stay alive this long I feel any help I can give god the better
that
There are no limits
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Again and again we try to apply the band-aid to the problem. So far posters have suggested more or less training and I can see the point of both.
Why don't we address the root cause - poor decision making and threat and error management.
If ALL pilots worldwide had to do this at every level of their training (yes, even ppl's) then there would be a lot fewer accidents.
Why don't we address the root cause - poor decision making and threat and error management.
If ALL pilots worldwide had to do this at every level of their training (yes, even ppl's) then there would be a lot fewer accidents.
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I'm not a heli pilot, but someone once said 'if you get into IMC in a light helicopter, the only known fact is that you are going to die.' Sad, but probably true.
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<<I have thought what I would do in same situation, and maybe for the benefit of others/investigators I would, if I had the presence of mind, keep my transmission open?>>
On what grounds? It simply means that nobody can talk to you. Lots of controllers are pilots and I have seen situations where a controller/pilot has saved a young PPL. It's senseless and dangerous to jam a frequiency.
On what grounds? It simply means that nobody can talk to you. Lots of controllers are pilots and I have seen situations where a controller/pilot has saved a young PPL. It's senseless and dangerous to jam a frequiency.
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It seems to me that the term IIMC is becoming a useful excuse for poor airmanship and non-existant captaincy. In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. And without supervision, there is nothing stopping pilots luanching with this mindset.
If a pilot is within 500 feet of the cloudbase or in visibility of less than 3km, then he really needs to be asking himself why he is there. Sometimes the answer will justify being there in those conditions, but really, for most non-professionals, if you go below those parameters then you are asking for trouble.
IIMC at night is excuseable under certain circumstances, IIMC by day is inexcuseable.
If a pilot is within 500 feet of the cloudbase or in visibility of less than 3km, then he really needs to be asking himself why he is there. Sometimes the answer will justify being there in those conditions, but really, for most non-professionals, if you go below those parameters then you are asking for trouble.
IIMC at night is excuseable under certain circumstances, IIMC by day is inexcuseable.
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I agree with you all chaps but I will add my two pennies for the lurkers.
If the cloud has you flying at 500' land or turn around, same with the viz. It's a helicopter after all and that's what's they are there fore.
I had to put down twice once was on the "beach" of the severn heading south and I knew was safe over the water but I could not see the severn bridge which was due very soon hence I landed. 20 Minutes later the weather improved and I launched only to find that bridge wasn't to far off.....
The other time it was a bit more high pressure because I had pax with me who had a lunch appointment but fortunately (IMHO) I was still very green and when I found myself at 500' I landed again. And again after 20 Minutes I launched except the band of rain & cloud had me divert into Southampton. Pax were livid since they missed their expensive lunch, I pointed out to them that they paid me to deliver them safely this calmed them though knowing pax they were more calmed by the fact that my boss picked up the tab for the missed lunch. That day we all got caught out by the weather even my colleague who had a gazillion hours under his belt and even he had to park in a field.
The message dear lurkers is there is no shame in landing and having a short break waiting for the weather to improve.
My condolences to the family.
If the cloud has you flying at 500' land or turn around, same with the viz. It's a helicopter after all and that's what's they are there fore.
I had to put down twice once was on the "beach" of the severn heading south and I knew was safe over the water but I could not see the severn bridge which was due very soon hence I landed. 20 Minutes later the weather improved and I launched only to find that bridge wasn't to far off.....
The other time it was a bit more high pressure because I had pax with me who had a lunch appointment but fortunately (IMHO) I was still very green and when I found myself at 500' I landed again. And again after 20 Minutes I launched except the band of rain & cloud had me divert into Southampton. Pax were livid since they missed their expensive lunch, I pointed out to them that they paid me to deliver them safely this calmed them though knowing pax they were more calmed by the fact that my boss picked up the tab for the missed lunch. That day we all got caught out by the weather even my colleague who had a gazillion hours under his belt and even he had to park in a field.
The message dear lurkers is there is no shame in landing and having a short break waiting for the weather to improve.
My condolences to the family.
One of the beauties of the sim.....
This is where a PPL could learn so much outside of the normal arena, a controlled slow deterioration into the clag and all the decisions therein to be made by him/her only until the dreaded red screen...
That would learn em..
This is where a PPL could learn so much outside of the normal arena, a controlled slow deterioration into the clag and all the decisions therein to be made by him/her only until the dreaded red screen...
That would learn em..
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I was taught to treat clouds like upside down mountains. Having said this whilst I am only beginning to get a little better at keeping straight and level in the R44 after over 200 hours it still happens that when changing radio frequency or playing with the GPS, or worse still looking at my chart I hit a thermal or just move the cyclic a milimeter, and rise 100 feet, this I suspect if flying too close to cloud base could be the cause of many in indvertant excursion into IMC.
Better red than ...
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The best instrument escape from inadvertent IMC entry at low level on flatish terrain is likely be a wings level steep climb to MSA and sort it out from there, but that's a whole different ball game and unlikely to be survived either by a non IR pilot.
To paraphrase Arthur Ransome in Swallows & Amazons/. "If not duffers, not in cloud. If duffers, duffers better drowned"
Take your pick. Drowning or flying upside down in a helicopter gives the same results.
VFR flying is just that. Clear of cloud. When in doubt. Land. And enjoy a cup of tea from your pre packed flask. Cloud around coastal areas like Cornwall or west of Scotland can be very unpredictable, and hence, best avoided.