Are students aware of the danger they are in!?
Heliblob: your brain wiring worries me.
Humans constantly evaluate risk. Some of them choose to ignore the warnings and end up as dead as the superbike rider I saw in bits down a motorway recently, having lost a battle with a truck.
But most of the ones who step into a helicopter for one-on-one instruction are constantly evaluated as a risk by their instructor. That instructor, normally, would like to continue life unimpeded by sticks, wheelchairs or coffins.
I used to be a racing instructor. This is an activity which carries immense risk because driving really attracts muppets who can't. After a while I could evaluate the "pupil" within 30 seconds of meeting them - and adjust our session accordingly.
Your question is redundant and an insult to the many good & excellent helicopter instructors.
Humans constantly evaluate risk. Some of them choose to ignore the warnings and end up as dead as the superbike rider I saw in bits down a motorway recently, having lost a battle with a truck.
But most of the ones who step into a helicopter for one-on-one instruction are constantly evaluated as a risk by their instructor. That instructor, normally, would like to continue life unimpeded by sticks, wheelchairs or coffins.
I used to be a racing instructor. This is an activity which carries immense risk because driving really attracts muppets who can't. After a while I could evaluate the "pupil" within 30 seconds of meeting them - and adjust our session accordingly.
Your question is redundant and an insult to the many good & excellent helicopter instructors.
Hovering AND talking
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your brain wiring worries me
Cheers
Whirls
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Normal hover height during instruction in an R22 is an interesting one. Its a long time since I flew the R22, but I used to be (slightly) criticised in general discussions with other instructors for hovering at, and requesting that students hover at the AFM recommended hover height (can't remember what it was any more).
Other instructors used to remark how low my students hovered. Their argument was that with a low time student the risk of them touching the ground going sideways was a greater risk than being a bit high, in the event of an engine failure in the hover.
Any thoughts?
Other instructors used to remark how low my students hovered. Their argument was that with a low time student the risk of them touching the ground going sideways was a greater risk than being a bit high, in the event of an engine failure in the hover.
Any thoughts?
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Helibob seems to be trapped in the politically correct mode of believing that we have to protect everyone from everything that could possibly go wrong during anything we ever do. Some examples of dumb warning labels….Nytol Sleep Aid: Warning, May cause drowsiness; Bread Pudding: Warning, product will be hot after heating; Pepper Spray: Warning, Never aim at your own eyes; and the list goes on.
Foxmead acknowledged Helinut’s common sense answer that I thought would have ended this thread. To quote Helinut, “Most activities and certainly those in aviation incur risks, but they are more or less balanced by some benefit. Becoming a pilot involves learning to manage those risks.” Bottom line, operation within the H-V avoid area is prohibited by law only if the H-V curve is given in Part 1 of the Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
Foxmead acknowledged Helinut’s common sense answer that I thought would have ended this thread. To quote Helinut, “Most activities and certainly those in aviation incur risks, but they are more or less balanced by some benefit. Becoming a pilot involves learning to manage those risks.” Bottom line, operation within the H-V avoid area is prohibited by law only if the H-V curve is given in Part 1 of the Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
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whirls,
i hope it's not Jim Morrison's 'broken strings' of which you speak, as I find myself on the boards early like a very young parent but now wondering
in like fashion if we will survive and get 'to hold onto still' our live-ex cattle ban over here.
tet.
for punto and aotw,
I don't think it is a problem teaching them to ppl's. no one says you have to do them at fifty feet, why not above 1,000 feet. It's an excellent environment to disoriente your pupil and thus give them a far more comprehensive set of tools to ward off the evils sometime later.
let's say we are doing rate one turns, left right, roll out on this or that heading, continue rate one left etc. Now, we have done quick stops? yes, -nods wisely -, thank god remembered that bit.
Now continue turns left right, now lets roll out into a gentle quick stop on heading 160 say. OK very good now don't forget where the wind is from, what'd yer say 150? ah yes, that's all good, lets continue the lesson for a few minutes but now we'll tighten it up maintaining steep turns for two or three orbits this spot, each direction and again - and again more steep turns left right, again, now (when they're quite confused) please roll out into a fairly hard quick stop on to 330. Get's em every time.
If they learn how to recover from unusual attitudes at that early stage it's so much safer for them later, don't you think?
nothing unusual about that. also makes it much easier for them to later pick up the rudiments of handling for a low level rating specifically for mustering.
Of particular import is the fact that they must never be turning the aircraft about its axis but still travelling downwind and flaring - trying to decrease airspeed.
doing the quickstop out of a sustained steep turn teaches the bit about ONLY initiating the flare as the nose has entered the quarter of - into wind
it might have saved a certain pilot from being alarmingly disorientated at Port Phillip Bay during a photo mission in a R44 a couple of years ago when she pretty much lost it, all because she hadn't been led through such easy recovery type exercises I would suggest.
all you have to do to intiate such is to get them to zoom climb with the same wind in the 330 direction to come to a hover at say 1500 feet whilst talking to them in such a fashion that their attention is totally diverted at the critical moment when they are supposed to be applying power. gets experienced pilots nearly every time. wallll - the first time that is.
regards tet
i hope it's not Jim Morrison's 'broken strings' of which you speak, as I find myself on the boards early like a very young parent but now wondering
in like fashion if we will survive and get 'to hold onto still' our live-ex cattle ban over here.
tet.
for punto and aotw,
I don't think it is a problem teaching them to ppl's. no one says you have to do them at fifty feet, why not above 1,000 feet. It's an excellent environment to disoriente your pupil and thus give them a far more comprehensive set of tools to ward off the evils sometime later.
let's say we are doing rate one turns, left right, roll out on this or that heading, continue rate one left etc. Now, we have done quick stops? yes, -nods wisely -, thank god remembered that bit.
Now continue turns left right, now lets roll out into a gentle quick stop on heading 160 say. OK very good now don't forget where the wind is from, what'd yer say 150? ah yes, that's all good, lets continue the lesson for a few minutes but now we'll tighten it up maintaining steep turns for two or three orbits this spot, each direction and again - and again more steep turns left right, again, now (when they're quite confused) please roll out into a fairly hard quick stop on to 330. Get's em every time.
If they learn how to recover from unusual attitudes at that early stage it's so much safer for them later, don't you think?
nothing unusual about that. also makes it much easier for them to later pick up the rudiments of handling for a low level rating specifically for mustering.
Of particular import is the fact that they must never be turning the aircraft about its axis but still travelling downwind and flaring - trying to decrease airspeed.
doing the quickstop out of a sustained steep turn teaches the bit about ONLY initiating the flare as the nose has entered the quarter of - into wind
it might have saved a certain pilot from being alarmingly disorientated at Port Phillip Bay during a photo mission in a R44 a couple of years ago when she pretty much lost it, all because she hadn't been led through such easy recovery type exercises I would suggest.
all you have to do to intiate such is to get them to zoom climb with the same wind in the 330 direction to come to a hover at say 1500 feet whilst talking to them in such a fashion that their attention is totally diverted at the critical moment when they are supposed to be applying power. gets experienced pilots nearly every time. wallll - the first time that is.
regards tet
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Punto - scoff if you wish, but I see the makings of a whole new exercise here. I think I'll call it the DownwindZoomQuickPFL. All we do is add a PFL to the end of the previous exercise and Bob's yer uncle. I am also thinking that it could even be used to further assess judgement by using it in bad weather, see if the little buggers know what a cloudbase looks like.
Tam
Tam
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when they get more advanced in their training they will cop an engine failure anywhere in that, at any height, but the ones who have got to the danger experience level of between 800 and 1200 hours and who have demonstrated a reckless disregard for the position of their tail close to the ground, definately will cop a full on T/R failure exercise at any time the aircraft airspeed reaches zero, but never from below 1500 AGL.
oh and don't have any loose articles laying around before you throw in the pedal, and don't for gods sake ever pull it on with a student until you are well practised in what will happen yourself.
if the victims are real smart arses then they will cop it first before we go through the routine t/r failure in the hover bit.
oh and don't have any loose articles laying around before you throw in the pedal, and don't for gods sake ever pull it on with a student until you are well practised in what will happen yourself.
if the victims are real smart arses then they will cop it first before we go through the routine t/r failure in the hover bit.
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Isnt it the other way round that everyone thinks that single engined helicopters fall out of the sky when the engine fails, until your instructer teaches you about the avoid curve and that there are some positions above five feet off the ground where you stand a reasonable chance of coming back to earth in one piece ?
Helinut,
It seems you are an advocate of hovering low "in case the engine fails."
Listen to Frank Robinson - he tells people that hovering higher is safer than hovering lower. He has never lost a helicopter from an engine failure while hovering higher, but there are hundreds of losses from people hovering too low, catching a skid on the ground and rolling over.
Play the odds: the chances of an engine failure in the high hover are very low, but the chance of stuffing up a low hover (with engine running) are very high.
It seems you are an advocate of hovering low "in case the engine fails."
Listen to Frank Robinson - he tells people that hovering higher is safer than hovering lower. He has never lost a helicopter from an engine failure while hovering higher, but there are hundreds of losses from people hovering too low, catching a skid on the ground and rolling over.
Play the odds: the chances of an engine failure in the high hover are very low, but the chance of stuffing up a low hover (with engine running) are very high.
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I think you summarise the risk balance well. How high is high enough though?
When I learned, we were all taught to hover at 3. Then Frank said 5 so I did 5. Then I taught for a while in an A model Enstrom so it was 4 inches
Seriously, I think it depends on the machine. I don't like being much higher than 5 in the R22 because you're getting into bend-the-skids territory if she quits. In the R44 10-12 doesn't worry me, but I still teach 5 feet (but we probably start a little higher with a brand new student and work our way down to 5!).
I've always heard you usually get a little warning when a piston engine is going to quit (except when you run it out of fuel). Do people agree? Do most piston engine mechanical failures happen with some preceding bad noises that would hint it's time to get it back to a lower altitude?
The only engine failure I've had was preceded by a good 30 seconds of banging before the broken connecting rod finally brought it all to a (blessed) stop.
Paul
