Firefighter's request for discussion about LZ video
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Firefighter's request for discussion about LZ video
Hello Folks,
First let me introduce myself. My name is Jonathan and I am a Captain at my fire department. On a basis, I am setting up LZ's so that we may fly patients out that are in critical care situations.
Below is a link to a video which has me a little confused. I was wondering if you could give me some opinions on this and what you guys think would be an optimal landing situation. Since we rarely ever get a chance to talk to our pilots (Due to the situation).
In the video, I don't think I would ever have a helicopter land here. Especially with a field next to it. Since I'm far from a pilot, maybe there is something that I a missing that you guys could fill in the blanks on. Or this is really as irresponsible as it looks.
Close Call: Air Ambulance Clips Electrical Lines on Take Off | The Fire Critic
Have a great day!!!!
Jonathan
First let me introduce myself. My name is Jonathan and I am a Captain at my fire department. On a basis, I am setting up LZ's so that we may fly patients out that are in critical care situations.
Below is a link to a video which has me a little confused. I was wondering if you could give me some opinions on this and what you guys think would be an optimal landing situation. Since we rarely ever get a chance to talk to our pilots (Due to the situation).
In the video, I don't think I would ever have a helicopter land here. Especially with a field next to it. Since I'm far from a pilot, maybe there is something that I a missing that you guys could fill in the blanks on. Or this is really as irresponsible as it looks.
Close Call: Air Ambulance Clips Electrical Lines on Take Off | The Fire Critic
Have a great day!!!!
Jonathan
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Or this is really as irresponsible as it looks.
Most of us make mistakes from time to time, whatever job we do - apart from those people lucky to be perfect.
BTW, already discussed here: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446...a-hate-em.html
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I completely apologize. In the Firefighter forum we are debating about it. So instead of trying to figure it out from everyone's opinions, I figured I would just ask a pilot and voila. Here I am. I'm not a pilot by any means and this is way out of my league.
I'll read it further to see if I could gather some accurate information.
I'll read it further to see if I could gather some accurate information.
Observer or ground safety guy with two way radio communications’ to the PIC would most likely prevent this from happening. Big heavy ambulances’ with retractable gear like this S-76 is better situated on firm smooth surface
Even though they can be put down in all sorts of spots
HEMS photo thread on rotorheads
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/270...ns-photos.html
Even though they can be put down in all sorts of spots
HEMS photo thread on rotorheads
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/270...ns-photos.html
"Just a pilot"
Regarding HEMS LZ operations, call anybody you know at any of the programs you work with, they'll likely hook you up. If you're in the Gainesville, GA (USA) come by the base and I'll buy you a cup of bad coffee and get into the subject as much as you like. Or PM me.
Point is, most in the industry will do everything they can to help you do the job. The better you do, the better we do, flying in and out.
Lots of really knowledgeable people here, but they're likely not where you are and probably won't be the ones working your scenes. There are local differences in how this is done.
Point is, most in the industry will do everything they can to help you do the job. The better you do, the better we do, flying in and out.
Lots of really knowledgeable people here, but they're likely not where you are and probably won't be the ones working your scenes. There are local differences in how this is done.
Jpalmos,
I was the chief pilot for a police/hems outfit and i can tell you now that the pilot would be looking for a new job if that was our cab.
There is no excuse for not being aware of these wires during a pre take off recce. Unbelievable poor airmanship.
Re the other point you raised. One should always land on the main road as a last option for various options and in no particular order:
blocking the traffic.
blowing debris (sometimes criminal evidence) around.
risk of damage to the helo from passing (enthusiastic) emergency service vehicles like fire trucks trying to get to the scene - thinking they can get past and under the disc.
The field he eventually landed in would have been the preferred LZ provided it was accessible by the ground troops and also safe to approach and depart from.
This video is an embarrassment to the industry, the pilot is a dork - sorry flying lawyer...you cant make mistakes like this in aviation, it could have wrapped itself round the tail rotor and the pilot could have lost control of the helo resulting in additional casualties/fatalities.
Off with his head I say
I was the chief pilot for a police/hems outfit and i can tell you now that the pilot would be looking for a new job if that was our cab.
There is no excuse for not being aware of these wires during a pre take off recce. Unbelievable poor airmanship.
Re the other point you raised. One should always land on the main road as a last option for various options and in no particular order:
blocking the traffic.
blowing debris (sometimes criminal evidence) around.
risk of damage to the helo from passing (enthusiastic) emergency service vehicles like fire trucks trying to get to the scene - thinking they can get past and under the disc.
The field he eventually landed in would have been the preferred LZ provided it was accessible by the ground troops and also safe to approach and depart from.
This video is an embarrassment to the industry, the pilot is a dork - sorry flying lawyer...you cant make mistakes like this in aviation, it could have wrapped itself round the tail rotor and the pilot could have lost control of the helo resulting in additional casualties/fatalities.
Off with his head I say
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The photo of the '76 on the railroad tracks reminds me of an accident in Saskatchewan a number of years ago. The pilot - I think he was flying a Bell 47 - was out in the bush and decided to land on the railway tracks. He felt it was safe because there aren't many trains in the north central part of the province. Well - you can probably guess the rest - he picked a bad time because along came a big freight train which couldn't stop in time. Fortunately everyone safely got out of the chopper but the pilot had some explaining to do to his boss.
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Jonathan:
The landing situation here was acceptable. I know the crews in the helicopter and the medics in the back. They landed right where they were wanted for ease of transfer from the road ambulance to the heli. The field was a very poor 2nd option (as I'm sure you know, getting a loaded stretcher over a fence is no picnic). In the video the field looks great, in reality it was far from it.
Nothing wrong with landing on roads for various reasons in no particular order...
A: Who cares about blocking traffic, you're there to save someone's life
B: Blowing debris can and will be found anywhere. Roads and fields, front yards and back yards and runways. (Blowing away evidence??? rofl)
C: Any ambulance or fire crew with half a brain won't come near a helicopter on the ground, whether it's blades are turning or not. The only ones who should approach are the medics with the patient.
The landing situation here was acceptable. I know the crews in the helicopter and the medics in the back. They landed right where they were wanted for ease of transfer from the road ambulance to the heli. The field was a very poor 2nd option (as I'm sure you know, getting a loaded stretcher over a fence is no picnic). In the video the field looks great, in reality it was far from it.
Re the other point you raised. One should always land on the main road as a last option for various options and in no particular order:
blocking the traffic.
blowing debris (sometimes criminal evidence) around.
risk of damage to the helo from passing (enthusiastic) emergency service vehicles like fire trucks trying to get to the scene - thinking they can get past and under the disc.
blocking the traffic.
blowing debris (sometimes criminal evidence) around.
risk of damage to the helo from passing (enthusiastic) emergency service vehicles like fire trucks trying to get to the scene - thinking they can get past and under the disc.
A: Who cares about blocking traffic, you're there to save someone's life
B: Blowing debris can and will be found anywhere. Roads and fields, front yards and back yards and runways. (Blowing away evidence??? rofl)
C: Any ambulance or fire crew with half a brain won't come near a helicopter on the ground, whether it's blades are turning or not. The only ones who should approach are the medics with the patient.
I agree with TC's 3 points re landings on roads, adding: blocking the road for departing road ambulances already on scene.
Re debris; if the accident proves fatal the position of vehicle debris seems to get the Feds here very twitchy (even litigious if its been moved)...... so Canuck could you retract your 'rofl' for uk roads at least!
Had to deal once with incident of a hub cap blown into casualties face. Not on my watch luckily.
Ease of transfer definitely comes second if there are sufficient firefighters to move cas. Or even using land veh, if available, to move the cas round the corner to a clear HLS. Safety trumps cas every time.
Perhaps the roads are bigger in Canada?
Re debris; if the accident proves fatal the position of vehicle debris seems to get the Feds here very twitchy (even litigious if its been moved)...... so Canuck could you retract your 'rofl' for uk roads at least!
Had to deal once with incident of a hub cap blown into casualties face. Not on my watch luckily.
Ease of transfer definitely comes second if there are sufficient firefighters to move cas. Or even using land veh, if available, to move the cas round the corner to a clear HLS. Safety trumps cas every time.
Perhaps the roads are bigger in Canada?
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I'm with Flying Lawyer on this one - a mistake rather than irresponsible.
There's no evidence that the pilot didn't do a recce, or that the pilot didn't know the wire was there. In fact, given the gentle pick-up and pedal turn away from the wire, it looks like the pilot was fully aware of the wire. What s/he wasn't aware of was the gentle drift backwards which occured before take-off. Without that, the helicopter would have cleared the wire.
I do a lot of work with pilots conducting serious low flying ops, including required flying sequences under wires. We know from experience that when pilots hit wires they are usually fully aware of the wire's presence.
There are well-known techniques to reduce the risk, but the reality is that being aware of a wire doesn't stop pilots hitting it. If you could solve that problem you deserve a Nobel prize.
There's no evidence that the pilot didn't do a recce, or that the pilot didn't know the wire was there. In fact, given the gentle pick-up and pedal turn away from the wire, it looks like the pilot was fully aware of the wire. What s/he wasn't aware of was the gentle drift backwards which occured before take-off. Without that, the helicopter would have cleared the wire.
I do a lot of work with pilots conducting serious low flying ops, including required flying sequences under wires. We know from experience that when pilots hit wires they are usually fully aware of the wire's presence.
There are well-known techniques to reduce the risk, but the reality is that being aware of a wire doesn't stop pilots hitting it. If you could solve that problem you deserve a Nobel prize.
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Sorry about the "rofl" thing. But in my EMS experience we would never land close enough to the actual scene to cause anything to get blown. Always a good distance from the wreck where all the first responders are gathered doing their thing.
Jonathan, next time you're on a scene try to get a minute to chat to the pilot(s). We are always willing and eager to chat it up with fire and medic crews about how everyone goes about their business and making it safer.
I'm also curious by your initial post, saying you'd never clear a helicopter to land somewhere you felt unsafe. Do the UK pilots not have the final say in where to land or does it have to be at the LZ marked out on the ground? I wouldn't have been popular in that case lol... had a running joke that the ring of flares was the one place you probably did not want to land
What you call a road, we call sidewalks 
Jonathan, next time you're on a scene try to get a minute to chat to the pilot(s). We are always willing and eager to chat it up with fire and medic crews about how everyone goes about their business and making it safer.
I'm also curious by your initial post, saying you'd never clear a helicopter to land somewhere you felt unsafe. Do the UK pilots not have the final say in where to land or does it have to be at the LZ marked out on the ground? I wouldn't have been popular in that case lol... had a running joke that the ring of flares was the one place you probably did not want to land
Perhaps the roads are bigger in Canada?
I'm not interested in assigning blame but wish to introduce two elements into this discussion.
Firstly; Canuck Guy quite rightly makes the point that the pilot has the final say on the choice of the landing site; whilst that is correct, there are constraints in Europe with respect to the size. The regulations state that the HEMS Operating Site must be big enough to provide adequate clearance from all obstructions and then in guidance - because it cannot be a requirement - states that the minimum dimension should be 2D. Clearly this site is not 2D wide.
Secondly, the manoeuvre contributed to the incident.
In general, spot turns can be placed into one of three types:
As has been mentioned in another post, it was lucky that the main rotor disc cut the wire, a tail rotor strike would have led to far more serious consequences.
Jim
Firstly; Canuck Guy quite rightly makes the point that the pilot has the final say on the choice of the landing site; whilst that is correct, there are constraints in Europe with respect to the size. The regulations state that the HEMS Operating Site must be big enough to provide adequate clearance from all obstructions and then in guidance - because it cannot be a requirement - states that the minimum dimension should be 2D. Clearly this site is not 2D wide.
Secondly, the manoeuvre contributed to the incident.
In general, spot turns can be placed into one of three types:
the standard one that is centred upon the rotor axis (this is the one taught to student pilots and is the easiest to perform because it requires only the application of pedal and the maintenance of stability) - this requires an area of 1.2D in which to contain the helicopter;
the one that is centred on the midpoint of the helicopter - this is the most difficult to perform and usually requires markings to follow (the 'touchdown and positioning marking' is specified in heliport/helideck requirements and has an inner dimension of 0.5D of the helicopter) - this requires an area of 1D in which to contain the helicopter;
the last is the one centred upon the pilot - this was the one used by the pilot in the incident, in some sense it is the most accurate because the pilot can pick and maintain a spot around which to turn - unfortunately it requires an area of 1.5D in which to contain the helicopter.
The landing site in the video is just over one rotor diameter wide (about 0.83D) - more importantly the obstacles on the starboard side are just over a rotor radius from the centreline of the site. As the pilot performs the spot turn, the tail rotor is inevitably placed under wires (this would probably have been the case with any of the spot turns described above). As has been mentioned in another post, it was lucky that the main rotor disc cut the wire, a tail rotor strike would have led to far more serious consequences.
Jim
Gordy - you surprise me.
As all of you out there know (who do HEMS especially) there is a huge flashing light that illuminates on the CWP when a pilot is told that there is a serious accident and casualties are involved - It's called the EGO light!
It comes on when the red fog forms and the pilot comes under pressure from the crew in the a/c (perceived, often silent) pressure from the crash scene crew to get down and finally any police/ambulance radios going off.
The pilot simply has to get as close as possible to the scene........because.......because.....
EVEN if he/she had to land on the road - why so close to all the action (crash scene/poles/wires/trees)?
I bet this guy could easily have landed in a quieter spot and well away from the wires. He force landed eventually into the field, so what was wrong with that in the first place. Answer: I am a professional pilot and I will show them how good I am - watch how eloquently I manouevre this large a/c into that small space....EGO light ON
The bloke's a nob and he deserves his P45. As Jimsaid/agreed, if that had been tail rotor....goodbye Vienna.
I don't care how many under wire flights you've done (
). And to suggest the pilot MAY have done a recce prior to take off, simply pours fuel on the fire. If you don't "know" your a/c and its footprint, you shouldn't be flying it.
As all of you out there know (who do HEMS especially) there is a huge flashing light that illuminates on the CWP when a pilot is told that there is a serious accident and casualties are involved - It's called the EGO light!
It comes on when the red fog forms and the pilot comes under pressure from the crew in the a/c (perceived, often silent) pressure from the crash scene crew to get down and finally any police/ambulance radios going off.
The pilot simply has to get as close as possible to the scene........because.......because.....
EVEN if he/she had to land on the road - why so close to all the action (crash scene/poles/wires/trees)?
I bet this guy could easily have landed in a quieter spot and well away from the wires. He force landed eventually into the field, so what was wrong with that in the first place. Answer: I am a professional pilot and I will show them how good I am - watch how eloquently I manouevre this large a/c into that small space....EGO light ON
The bloke's a nob and he deserves his P45. As Jimsaid/agreed, if that had been tail rotor....goodbye Vienna.
I don't care how many under wire flights you've done (
). And to suggest the pilot MAY have done a recce prior to take off, simply pours fuel on the fire. If you don't "know" your a/c and its footprint, you shouldn't be flying it.
TC
Why? I was actually agreeing with this:
I also agree with Flying Lawyer --- this does not show the pilot to be reckless, merely a judgement error. I do not fly EMS, and therefore cannot comment on the EMS ego light.
I was not there, so cannot comment on the reasons he chose to land where he did, but based upon what I can see in the video, I would not discount it, however it may not have been my first choice of landing site due to the wires. Wires need to be respected but not feared.
I fly low level most of the time, and land off airport more than on airport. I also am required to complete a day long course on "Wire and Obstruction Avoidance Training" on an annual basis. One of the things discussed in this training is short term memory. Basically your brain can remember about 4 or 5 key pieces of "key" information at any given time before it slips into "background" memory. (Forgive me, but I may not be using the correct terminology). There are numerous cases of aircraft landing in spots next to wires and then flying right into them on departure. The training I have received now requires me to think of the wire with every other thought...for example, on lift off, my thought process is:
Check torque
Where is the wire
Check N1
Where is the wire
Check TOT
Where is the wire
yada yada yada---you get the idea.
As for:
Really???? Lets hope you never make a mistake.
Throw me right in the group of dorks then, because I land on many roads. And yes I do know I have trees all around me...
Then again, I do not need to worry about vehicles trying to get past me....
Gordy - you surprise me.
Nothing wrong with landing on roads for various reasons in no particular order...
A: Who cares about blocking traffic, you're there to save someone's life
B: Blowing debris can and will be found anywhere. Roads and fields, front yards and back yards and runways. (Blowing away evidence??? rofl)
C: Any ambulance or fire crew with half a brain won't come near a helicopter on the ground, whether it's blades are turning or not. The only ones who should approach are the medics with the patient.
A: Who cares about blocking traffic, you're there to save someone's life
B: Blowing debris can and will be found anywhere. Roads and fields, front yards and back yards and runways. (Blowing away evidence??? rofl)
C: Any ambulance or fire crew with half a brain won't come near a helicopter on the ground, whether it's blades are turning or not. The only ones who should approach are the medics with the patient.
I was not there, so cannot comment on the reasons he chose to land where he did, but based upon what I can see in the video, I would not discount it, however it may not have been my first choice of landing site due to the wires. Wires need to be respected but not feared.
I fly low level most of the time, and land off airport more than on airport. I also am required to complete a day long course on "Wire and Obstruction Avoidance Training" on an annual basis. One of the things discussed in this training is short term memory. Basically your brain can remember about 4 or 5 key pieces of "key" information at any given time before it slips into "background" memory. (Forgive me, but I may not be using the correct terminology). There are numerous cases of aircraft landing in spots next to wires and then flying right into them on departure. The training I have received now requires me to think of the wire with every other thought...for example, on lift off, my thought process is:
Check torque
Where is the wire
Check N1
Where is the wire
Check TOT
Where is the wire
yada yada yada---you get the idea.
As for:
the pilot is a dork
The bloke's a nob
Throw me right in the group of dorks then, because I land on many roads. And yes I do know I have trees all around me...
Then again, I do not need to worry about vehicles trying to get past me....
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My initial observation
In a confined environment, I would expect the pilot to back out the way they way they came in, perhaps with ground guidance, perhaps not.
Many tight helo platforms, such as offshore platforms, the pilots back the helo up a until visual clearance, then rotate...
rotating in ground effects is just asking for problems...
In a confined environment, I would expect the pilot to back out the way they way they came in, perhaps with ground guidance, perhaps not.
Many tight helo platforms, such as offshore platforms, the pilots back the helo up a until visual clearance, then rotate...
rotating in ground effects is just asking for problems...
FlightPathOBN,
Your comments are a real blast from the past. These types of helidecks should have been confined to the dustbin years ago. Annex 14 requires an unobstructed 180 degree obstacle clear segment (drop-down is possible) within a 210 degree limited limited obstacle segment (no obstacles above deck level).
Backing-up from a helideck is anathema because the 'habit' is an extremely dangerous one to have. As with this site, manoeuvring (in the sense of spot-turns) on helidecks is not recommended for the same reason that was explained in a previous post.
Hopefully the message that will be taken from this unfortunate incident is a rule of thumb (apart from the obvious one about required distances from obstacles) that, from a pilot's perspective:
the type of spot turn (see my previous post) will dictate the amount of space required for the manoeuvre.
What I omitted to say in my last post was the pilot was saved because the worst manoeuvre was employed. If a more economical one had been used, the tail rotor would have struck, not the main rotor.
Jim
Your comments are a real blast from the past. These types of helidecks should have been confined to the dustbin years ago. Annex 14 requires an unobstructed 180 degree obstacle clear segment (drop-down is possible) within a 210 degree limited limited obstacle segment (no obstacles above deck level).
Backing-up from a helideck is anathema because the 'habit' is an extremely dangerous one to have. As with this site, manoeuvring (in the sense of spot-turns) on helidecks is not recommended for the same reason that was explained in a previous post.
Hopefully the message that will be taken from this unfortunate incident is a rule of thumb (apart from the obvious one about required distances from obstacles) that, from a pilot's perspective:
- less than half of the helicopter is poking out of the side
- only a quarter of the helicopter is poking out of the front
- three quarters of the helicopter is poking out of the back
the type of spot turn (see my previous post) will dictate the amount of space required for the manoeuvre.
What I omitted to say in my last post was the pilot was saved because the worst manoeuvre was employed. If a more economical one had been used, the tail rotor would have struck, not the main rotor.
Jim
Last edited by JimL; 20th Apr 2011 at 08:19.
All in all... this pilot got lucky... It was an unfortunate incident that I am sure she learnt from and will never ever happen again in her career... My biggest worry here is that, as posted before, NO ONE waived or jumped up and down....
So, for the fire fighters discussion, JUMP SHOUT WAIVE etc etc and get the pilots attention.
Helicopters were designed to be landed in situations like these, and some times....... just some times...... **** HAPPENS.
Some of the work I have done has dictated that I get in under a forest canopy, and the boys on the ground are communicating all the time. We don't have eyes in the back of our heads, so talk up...
So, for the fire fighters discussion, JUMP SHOUT WAIVE etc etc and get the pilots attention.
Helicopters were designed to be landed in situations like these, and some times....... just some times...... **** HAPPENS.
Some of the work I have done has dictated that I get in under a forest canopy, and the boys on the ground are communicating all the time. We don't have eyes in the back of our heads, so talk up...