R44 Pilots On A Budget Required - Denham / Wycombe
Thread Starter
Hi Yes, we would like to introduce a system where we photograph the fan nut which is one indicator and possibly fit a Nflightcam or similar if we can find a way to reliably "download" the data at the end of each day.
Is there another way I don't know about?
CC
Is there another way I don't know about?
CC
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I have seen a datalogging device fitted to 22's that records RPM exceedances and has been used in at least one overspeed inicident to attribute blame in the right direction. Not sure where it got to in terms of approvals/certifications but I should be able to point you in the correct direction. PM me if you want more details.
Thread Starter
We are mostly more concerned with safety aspects of knowing that an overspeed incident has happened and carrying out the correct inspection and if required, remediation, than pointing the finger at who did it.
But it does beg the question with something as fundamentally important as this, why wouldn't Frank fit an overspeed warning light / buzzer which is going to record an overspeed and require a Robbo approved maintenance facility to reset the light after an overspeed inspection?
CC
But it does beg the question with something as fundamentally important as this, why wouldn't Frank fit an overspeed warning light / buzzer which is going to record an overspeed and require a Robbo approved maintenance facility to reset the light after an overspeed inspection?
CC
Last edited by chopperchappie; 17th Apr 2011 at 11:19.
Thread Starter
Watching the flying
Hi Figure Of Merit
I didn't have any luck on the data-logging aspect as the guy you pointed me at has been quite busy.
In the meantime I did find a HD camera (motocam 360) that can record up to 12 hours HD (720p 30fps) and can be factory reconfigured so that it automatically starts recording when the aircraft breakers / ignition is switched on.
Assuming we can set the camera to see the instruments and (ideally) out of the cockpit as well, we can kill two birds with one stone.
There is another thread somewhere about cameras but I didn't see this one mentioned.
CC
I didn't have any luck on the data-logging aspect as the guy you pointed me at has been quite busy.
In the meantime I did find a HD camera (motocam 360) that can record up to 12 hours HD (720p 30fps) and can be factory reconfigured so that it automatically starts recording when the aircraft breakers / ignition is switched on.
Assuming we can set the camera to see the instruments and (ideally) out of the cockpit as well, we can kill two birds with one stone.
There is another thread somewhere about cameras but I didn't see this one mentioned.
CC
Thread Starter
R44 Sharing Scheme Update
So we have been up and running for nearly two years now and everything has been going well - right up until the aircraft suffered the predicted overspeed.
The pilot fitted a big screen GPS that meant he couldn't fully see his feet, and admits they may have not been as correctly positioned to lift to the hover, but also feels he was slightly less aware of the situation developing than he could have been.
As he lifted to the hover the aircraft yawed and in an attempt to fly clear of other obstacles he pulled in more power too quickly and the governor couldn't manage the sudden input.
It's taken a while and there's been a few issues, frustration and tears but thanks to all that have helped to sort it out we are now back flying again with the engine overhauled.
In the spirit of passing on "lessons learned" there's two big ones;
1) Don't fly without thinking about your state of mind if it's less than 100% focussed on flying, have you got problems at home, feeling rough, headache, and don't try and fly and try out new kit for the first time solo, do it when you have got someone sitting next to you that can take control while you concentrate on your "toys", or better still just let someone else fly who can concentrate on the flying.
2) Everyone talks about overspeed on startup but very few people talk about overspeed on lift to the hover but it happens, after the event I found a website listing the (often) causes of overspeed and there it was number 2.
The importance of clearly reporting such an incident as an overspeed can not be over stressed - don't make assumptions that other people will just know. Make sure everyone knows and don't be shy about it. Don't even think about not reporting it. When the cam came out of our engine it was well deformed!
There is a new low cost "black box" that's being developed and we hope to get one fitted later this year (subject to EASA approvals), that we really think will help us identify which pilots are flying "well" and which pilots are heavy handed, we understand one of the main benefits will be a warning light if the aircraft has been oversped, just to re-enforce the incident reporting point.
Anyway - as a result of this overspeed incident one of the members has left the group and we have an open spot, I know this forum is not for advertising so see ebay, or www.helisharing.co.uk but apart from this one blip it has worked quite well but it is lots of effort.
In the scheme of things we did expect something like this to happen but hoped it wouldn't, nevertheless the scheme works well otherwise.
The main thing is that everyone has to have respect for the aircraft and not treat it like a rental car.
DF
The pilot fitted a big screen GPS that meant he couldn't fully see his feet, and admits they may have not been as correctly positioned to lift to the hover, but also feels he was slightly less aware of the situation developing than he could have been.
As he lifted to the hover the aircraft yawed and in an attempt to fly clear of other obstacles he pulled in more power too quickly and the governor couldn't manage the sudden input.
It's taken a while and there's been a few issues, frustration and tears but thanks to all that have helped to sort it out we are now back flying again with the engine overhauled.
In the spirit of passing on "lessons learned" there's two big ones;
1) Don't fly without thinking about your state of mind if it's less than 100% focussed on flying, have you got problems at home, feeling rough, headache, and don't try and fly and try out new kit for the first time solo, do it when you have got someone sitting next to you that can take control while you concentrate on your "toys", or better still just let someone else fly who can concentrate on the flying.
2) Everyone talks about overspeed on startup but very few people talk about overspeed on lift to the hover but it happens, after the event I found a website listing the (often) causes of overspeed and there it was number 2.
The importance of clearly reporting such an incident as an overspeed can not be over stressed - don't make assumptions that other people will just know. Make sure everyone knows and don't be shy about it. Don't even think about not reporting it. When the cam came out of our engine it was well deformed!
There is a new low cost "black box" that's being developed and we hope to get one fitted later this year (subject to EASA approvals), that we really think will help us identify which pilots are flying "well" and which pilots are heavy handed, we understand one of the main benefits will be a warning light if the aircraft has been oversped, just to re-enforce the incident reporting point.
Anyway - as a result of this overspeed incident one of the members has left the group and we have an open spot, I know this forum is not for advertising so see ebay, or www.helisharing.co.uk but apart from this one blip it has worked quite well but it is lots of effort.
In the scheme of things we did expect something like this to happen but hoped it wouldn't, nevertheless the scheme works well otherwise.
The main thing is that everyone has to have respect for the aircraft and not treat it like a rental car.
DF
Last edited by chopperchappie; 3rd Jun 2013 at 09:13.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but did he also over-speed the rotors?
Presumably he pulled in more power after the lift and didn't see (or hear) the RPM rise, but the clutch should have prevented the engine from going faster than the rotors so the engine can only over-speed as far as the rotors do. With the rotors, the damage problem initially is the bearings, not the blades.
He must have been low weight, otherwise I would have expected there to be a droop, not an over-speed, when he pulled in a lot of power, and that, in itself, would have caused more yaw.
I'd like to understand so I can try to avoid it happening to me!
Lafite
Presumably he pulled in more power after the lift and didn't see (or hear) the RPM rise, but the clutch should have prevented the engine from going faster than the rotors so the engine can only over-speed as far as the rotors do. With the rotors, the damage problem initially is the bearings, not the blades.
He must have been low weight, otherwise I would have expected there to be a droop, not an over-speed, when he pulled in a lot of power, and that, in itself, would have caused more yaw.
I'd like to understand so I can try to avoid it happening to me!
Lafite
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61 Lafite makes a very good point.
The pilot admitted a certain level of distraction, is it just as possible that he raised the collective without actually switching on the governor and the correlator pushed up the rpm?
The pilot admitted a certain level of distraction, is it just as possible that he raised the collective without actually switching on the governor and the correlator pushed up the rpm?
Thread Starter
How to overspeed an R44
Obviously I need to be sensitive and I wasn't in the aircraft so I am providing second hand information, but that said I understand that the;
a) Governor was engaged and operating "correctly" - however it can't always keep up (this is also true of high altitudes in the R44 - so I'm told)
b) Rotors were oversped and needed NDT inspection and new spindle bearings.
c) Aircraft was normal weight with passengers - in a Clipper that normally means near-ish MAUW as there's a weight penalty for the float system and often we don't fill both tanks to stay within limits with four up.
See; Overspeeds | Aeromega Helicopters
CC
a) Governor was engaged and operating "correctly" - however it can't always keep up (this is also true of high altitudes in the R44 - so I'm told)
b) Rotors were oversped and needed NDT inspection and new spindle bearings.
c) Aircraft was normal weight with passengers - in a Clipper that normally means near-ish MAUW as there's a weight penalty for the float system and often we don't fill both tanks to stay within limits with four up.
See; Overspeeds | Aeromega Helicopters
CC
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Tight Grip!!
From what I've seen during training you are unlikely to get an overspeed by just lifting the lever, unless it's a quick input. More likely the pilot is tense on the controls and has gripped the throttle too tightly and is overriding the governor.
Just my experience
Ss
Just my experience
Ss
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Tight grip - that'd more likely be my guess too. As you raise the collective from the ground the governor is trying to close the throttle, but a tight grip will stop it from doing so, RPM goes up. Easily done.
I also know of an R44 syndicate in Denham with a spare space, Clipper II, Garmin 430, GPS, bladders, all the toys... 1/4 share, £175/hr+fuel. PM if you'd like more info
I also know of an R44 syndicate in Denham with a spare space, Clipper II, Garmin 430, GPS, bladders, all the toys... 1/4 share, £175/hr+fuel. PM if you'd like more info
Thread Starter
As I said - I wasn't there so I'm not going to say what it was or wasn't - from the pilot, he pulled power in suddenly in an attempt to transition to forward flight. Maybe he had a tight grip as well.
Anyway the key thing about the sharing scheme is that it's explicitly different to "owning" a quarter or whatever of the aircraft, which means it's low investment (about £5k) and substantially less per hour than Aucky indicated.
So there's a monthly subscription and £182 per hour wet. Obviously that's subject to change as fuel prices change.
What this means is people need to play ball and pay their bills on time as we have to manage the cash-flow without huge cash reserves.
CC
Anyway the key thing about the sharing scheme is that it's explicitly different to "owning" a quarter or whatever of the aircraft, which means it's low investment (about £5k) and substantially less per hour than Aucky indicated.
So there's a monthly subscription and £182 per hour wet. Obviously that's subject to change as fuel prices change.
What this means is people need to play ball and pay their bills on time as we have to manage the cash-flow without huge cash reserves.
CC
Last edited by chopperchappie; 4th Jun 2013 at 12:34.
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Chappie,
What your now former member claimed is nearly impossible (with the gov on) to accomplish. It almost sounds like his/her explanation was a really tall tale manufactured to cover up what actually happened.
If it were my helicopter, I'd look EVERYTHING over really closely.
Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of why you don't want partners owning a helicopter.
What your now former member claimed is nearly impossible (with the gov on) to accomplish. It almost sounds like his/her explanation was a really tall tale manufactured to cover up what actually happened.
If it were my helicopter, I'd look EVERYTHING over really closely.
Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of why you don't want partners owning a helicopter.
Last edited by 13snoopy; 9th Jun 2013 at 22:45.
I have thought in the past about selling shares in a machine,but frankly would rather have the peace of mind that if anything goes wrong then it's down to me.I also tend to think that if you worry too much about the cost,then you probably can't afford it. I fly less than 100 hours a year now,mainly through waiting for parts every time my ancient machine has its annual or even six monthly check and it is true that EASA seems determined to price us all out of flying one way or another but ,once I get airborne on a lovely day like this last weekend ,it all seems worth it !
Chopper chappie - you sound like an 'awfully nice chap', from all accounts, none more than trusting in your fellow colleagues to play ball when it comes to behaving themselves when it comes to sharing the chopper.
From my perspective - 13snoopy has it in one. Would you share your wife with anyone (don't answer that!) so why share the next thing which will kill you if you don't look after it!!!?
You either don't have much of a survival instinct or you are maybe a little green behind the ears??
I suspect he took off without the governor switched on.
From my perspective - 13snoopy has it in one. Would you share your wife with anyone (don't answer that!) so why share the next thing which will kill you if you don't look after it!!!?
You either don't have much of a survival instinct or you are maybe a little green behind the ears??
I suspect he took off without the governor switched on.
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I am a member of this group and can confirm that Chopper Chappie is a very nice chap 
On the subject of sharing vs owning clearly if I could afford to own a machine outright and park it in own garden I would do that but I am not in that boat (just yet).
So the choice is to share a machine with 9 other like minded pilots, all of whom I have flown with or to take a self hire machine which has all the same inherent problems associated with someone else having flown it before me.
The issues are also the same for anyone owning their own machine and leasing it back to a flying school for training to try and make the numbers work.
Other than this overspeed blip the group has worked very well, is more cost effective than self fly hiring, has surprisingly good availability and we regularly go flying with each other so I get to go places and see things that I almost certainly would not be doing if I wasn't in the group. We also do group learning days with have been very valuable.
On the subject of sharing vs owning clearly if I could afford to own a machine outright and park it in own garden I would do that but I am not in that boat (just yet).
So the choice is to share a machine with 9 other like minded pilots, all of whom I have flown with or to take a self hire machine which has all the same inherent problems associated with someone else having flown it before me.
The issues are also the same for anyone owning their own machine and leasing it back to a flying school for training to try and make the numbers work.
Other than this overspeed blip the group has worked very well, is more cost effective than self fly hiring, has surprisingly good availability and we regularly go flying with each other so I get to go places and see things that I almost certainly would not be doing if I wasn't in the group. We also do group learning days with have been very valuable.
