Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hong kong
Age: 53
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rest in Peace
Hi All,
I find it quite sad to read a thread with such venom of a fellow aviator . We are all here I hope because of our love in flying and in this forum especially the rotating kind!
Lesson's learned for me have been very personal . it has brought home the risk and reward decisions we make every time the rotor turns and having a young family it really cuts close to the bone. I for one have changed a few things in my flying that this most unfortunate accident has highlighted and I can only give my deepest condolences to Mark's family and cherished friends . I can only hope we can maybe look at bit deeper into ourselves before bashing the keyboards and people we probably do not know and instead use this invaluable resource of knowledge to help each other instead.
I find it quite sad to read a thread with such venom of a fellow aviator . We are all here I hope because of our love in flying and in this forum especially the rotating kind!
Lesson's learned for me have been very personal . it has brought home the risk and reward decisions we make every time the rotor turns and having a young family it really cuts close to the bone. I for one have changed a few things in my flying that this most unfortunate accident has highlighted and I can only give my deepest condolences to Mark's family and cherished friends . I can only hope we can maybe look at bit deeper into ourselves before bashing the keyboards and people we probably do not know and instead use this invaluable resource of knowledge to help each other instead.
uk104, well said - see my post #150, before the AAIB report was published. I would hope that the vast majority of subscribers are here to learn and not troll.
I think that all that has been said on this thread is all that can be said , so this will be my last post.
I think that all that has been said on this thread is all that can be said , so this will be my last post.
Isn't this the whole point of PPRuNe - to learn? It certainly is for me.
There are all sorts on this forum: PPLs, CPLs, ATPLs, owners/operators, engineers, ATCs, CAA staff, journalists, insurers, instructors, students, handlers and so on. Some have lots of hours, some have none. Some ferry VIPs around, some spray crops, some go to war. Some sit in armchairs waiting to flick peanuts at the first opportunity. Not one of us will ever know it all, but if you're interested in learning then IMO there isn't a better place to do it.
If someone posts an opinion in good faith, then they shouldn't be flamed for it - that will just stifle debate. If someone posts an experience that they know was wrong, they should be thanked for sharing that experience so others can learn from it, not lambasted and labelled an idiot. If an opinion can be changed for the better through someone else's experience, then use this forum to educate with a mature and measured response instead of the pompous and emotional rhetoric that so often ensues. We will all learn and become safer pilots.
We still don't know what went wrong for Mark although we have our suspicions; hopefully time will tell. I am also grateful to have learned a lot from this thread, so at least something +ve has come out of Mark's death.
There are all sorts on this forum: PPLs, CPLs, ATPLs, owners/operators, engineers, ATCs, CAA staff, journalists, insurers, instructors, students, handlers and so on. Some have lots of hours, some have none. Some ferry VIPs around, some spray crops, some go to war. Some sit in armchairs waiting to flick peanuts at the first opportunity. Not one of us will ever know it all, but if you're interested in learning then IMO there isn't a better place to do it.
If someone posts an opinion in good faith, then they shouldn't be flamed for it - that will just stifle debate. If someone posts an experience that they know was wrong, they should be thanked for sharing that experience so others can learn from it, not lambasted and labelled an idiot. If an opinion can be changed for the better through someone else's experience, then use this forum to educate with a mature and measured response instead of the pompous and emotional rhetoric that so often ensues. We will all learn and become safer pilots.
We still don't know what went wrong for Mark although we have our suspicions; hopefully time will tell. I am also grateful to have learned a lot from this thread, so at least something +ve has come out of Mark's death.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: lake district
Age: 48
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said uk 104, and ttb above all this is a great place to learn things.
I think one piece of context we need to remember when we talk about missing log books and unauthorised parts is this. Mark used his gazelle like a land rover. He was constantly running round with spare parts for diggers and generators (the mine had no mains electric)... day in day out. Now can you really see youself filling in a log book every time you nip to the shops in your car, or checking that the brake linings the garage fits are genuine??? I don't support what he did, and don't agree with it. But if you consider the context of him using this machine day after day i hope it gives a broader understanding of the man.
The work his family are doing to maintain his legacy is outstanding and would thoroughly reccommend a day out at the mine. RIP.
I think one piece of context we need to remember when we talk about missing log books and unauthorised parts is this. Mark used his gazelle like a land rover. He was constantly running round with spare parts for diggers and generators (the mine had no mains electric)... day in day out. Now can you really see youself filling in a log book every time you nip to the shops in your car, or checking that the brake linings the garage fits are genuine??? I don't support what he did, and don't agree with it. But if you consider the context of him using this machine day after day i hope it gives a broader understanding of the man.
The work his family are doing to maintain his legacy is outstanding and would thoroughly reccommend a day out at the mine. RIP.
Last edited by stringfellow; 15th Oct 2012 at 15:57.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now can you really see youself filling in a log book every time you nip to the shops in your car, or checking that the brake linings the garage fits are genuine?
Perhaps next time I fly 12 times in a single day I should just ignore the logbook and draw a big line through the techlog, putting in just the landing time at the end and not really bothering to fill any other bits in.
It's just that attitude to short cut that cause the problems. If you are flying a machine like this, you should ensure you are satisfied every single flight, that all the paperwork is complete. If you are flying on short hops with that regularity, it is all the more important that you ensure you retain the checks, balances and discipline of procedure each and every time you fly.
Lest you start to think those checks are not important, and they start getting skipped in ever greater magnitude.
Hang on, I can't speak for the other people who post on here but here is some context and my "beef".
This thread has been around for 18 months and it wasn't until around a year after the shunt that the "official" version of events was reported.
Ironically - as is the case with very many accidents reported on pprune - the initial feelings are pretty much bourne out by these official reports. Yet in the first instances people who hold very valid views tend to get shouted down.
It is surely better to encourage a debate than stifle it and come on lets not play with semantics there were no records, there was no rating and whilst aircraft didn't actually fail, as far as can be told, with the maintenance record as it was its not an aircraft i'd want to sign for.
That is deeply uncool.
Giving an "out" is suggesting that there is a margin and there isn't. Some people have tried to talk about some wild spirit and courage to fly like that etc etc etc. It takes no courage to be the biggest fool, it just takes foolishness.
"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills"
Its pure cheese but kind of fits, thing is people suggest there should be some respect shown to this guy but what respect was he showing his peers with his record keeping, maintenance and attitude to flying even before he had his prang. Nevermind that what respect did he have for his family that he has sadly left behind?
Honestly it is staggering and flying like this does none of us any favours.
Edited to add:- actually you know when the record keeping etc is so poor one wonders why bother having a licence at all? I mean if its all such a rotten chore and everyone knows less than you - why not just have a go? Forget night rating and IR... forget a PPL just throw some cash at a salesman and see how it goes? Does that work any better for people that think its ok to be casual??
No?? OK so where do you draw the line?
This thread has been around for 18 months and it wasn't until around a year after the shunt that the "official" version of events was reported.
Ironically - as is the case with very many accidents reported on pprune - the initial feelings are pretty much bourne out by these official reports. Yet in the first instances people who hold very valid views tend to get shouted down.
It is surely better to encourage a debate than stifle it and come on lets not play with semantics there were no records, there was no rating and whilst aircraft didn't actually fail, as far as can be told, with the maintenance record as it was its not an aircraft i'd want to sign for.
That is deeply uncool.
Giving an "out" is suggesting that there is a margin and there isn't. Some people have tried to talk about some wild spirit and courage to fly like that etc etc etc. It takes no courage to be the biggest fool, it just takes foolishness.
"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills"
Its pure cheese but kind of fits, thing is people suggest there should be some respect shown to this guy but what respect was he showing his peers with his record keeping, maintenance and attitude to flying even before he had his prang. Nevermind that what respect did he have for his family that he has sadly left behind?
Honestly it is staggering and flying like this does none of us any favours.
Edited to add:- actually you know when the record keeping etc is so poor one wonders why bother having a licence at all? I mean if its all such a rotten chore and everyone knows less than you - why not just have a go? Forget night rating and IR... forget a PPL just throw some cash at a salesman and see how it goes? Does that work any better for people that think its ok to be casual??
No?? OK so where do you draw the line?
Last edited by Pittsextra; 15th Oct 2012 at 16:37. Reason: punctuation and added....
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: lake district
Age: 48
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exo.
If you take a closer look at my quote you will notice i stated that i don't support the view of avoiding paper work... it creates too many head aches down the line.
What i was trying to achieve was to add context to the debate by reminding people that this machine was on the go day in day out, and yeah you may fill in every last line of your tech log, and so do i... but we dont live in a perfect world do we.
If we were all equal by god wouldn't life be boring.
If you take a closer look at my quote you will notice i stated that i don't support the view of avoiding paper work... it creates too many head aches down the line.
What i was trying to achieve was to add context to the debate by reminding people that this machine was on the go day in day out, and yeah you may fill in every last line of your tech log, and so do i... but we dont live in a perfect world do we.
If we were all equal by god wouldn't life be boring.
M1900
The relatives of the deceased can sue for libel if it can be proved that defamation of the dead affects the relatives' own reputation as well. Mark's family were (and are) heavily involved in the continued development of Honister Slate Mine. In this case, the family could also have a go at TC arguing malicious falsehood.
The relatives of the deceased can sue for libel if it can be proved that defamation of the dead affects the relatives' own reputation as well. Mark's family were (and are) heavily involved in the continued development of Honister Slate Mine. In this case, the family could also have a go at TC arguing malicious falsehood.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: lake district
Age: 48
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pittsextra..
I agree 100% with you. Ever since i started to view these forums i have been mystified why it is scorned upon to discuss an accident prior to report being published. And im not alone. Debate is a great platform for learning... even if indeed all the speculation turns out wrong.... knowledge is gained. And as you alluded in the most part the speculation is not a million miles from the truth.
I agree 100% with you. Ever since i started to view these forums i have been mystified why it is scorned upon to discuss an accident prior to report being published. And im not alone. Debate is a great platform for learning... even if indeed all the speculation turns out wrong.... knowledge is gained. And as you alluded in the most part the speculation is not a million miles from the truth.
Where does it say the tech log wasn't filled in ?
No current pilot, engine or airframe logbooks were
found in the UK, preventing confirmation of the flight hours accrued. The total hours counter on the instrument panel did not match the recorded hours supplied by the Hungarian operator.
found in the UK, preventing confirmation of the flight hours accrued. The total hours counter on the instrument panel did not match the recorded hours supplied by the Hungarian operator.
The AAIB report also says in relation to maintenance that:-
Maintenance work had been completed to change components without the knowledge of the approved maintenance organisation responsible for the aircraft. No record was found of who carried out this work or whether they had the appropriate training and approvals
Fluid levels within various components on the helicopter were found to be much lower than expected, with no obvious
leaks identified. This might indicate poor maintenance practices or missed maintenance checks
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
If a professional pilot opened a slate mine as a hobby but ignored safety checks and daily maintenance, used unapproved parts on his machines, was not qualified to operate in the way he did then ended up having a fatal accident (even though he was surely a nice bloke with a family and had made a mint as a pilot), what could we expect professional miners to say?
The relatives of the deceased can sue for libel if it can be proved that defamation of the dead affects the relatives' own reputation as well.
However if any of the rellies were legally involved in the helicopters operation and objected to that comment, then they too in the defence against that comment, would have to answer for the 'discrepancies', eg ex mil unservicable items fitted to the aircraft and no records of time lifed component useage over three years. Whilst the comment may seem harsh, the definition of it is 'dishonest', which could reasonably be applied to fitting unserviceable bits I'd suggest. They'd also be up against 'fair comment' i.e. if the statement was a view that a reasonable person could have held.
Regarding log filling, tech or otherwise, I don't feel there's any excuse for not doing so at the end of the day, even if its a busy multi sector day. Pencil and a reporters notebook kept in the cockpit, its not that difficult is it?
TTB: touched a raw nerve did we?
This thread together with the report should be classroom reading for all future CRM / human factor presentations (together with the damning footage of his aerial exploits).
With luck and a following wind it has already slowed other cowboys down sufficiently to reconsider their attitude towards committing aviation. Unfortunately for the rest - we await their demise and future debate on Pprune about their propensity to defy the fundamental laws of physics and common sense.
Try not to respond TTB....try hard......
This thread together with the report should be classroom reading for all future CRM / human factor presentations (together with the damning footage of his aerial exploits).
With luck and a following wind it has already slowed other cowboys down sufficiently to reconsider their attitude towards committing aviation. Unfortunately for the rest - we await their demise and future debate on Pprune about their propensity to defy the fundamental laws of physics and common sense.
Try not to respond TTB....try hard......
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 15th Oct 2012 at 22:37.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South of the North Pole
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what could we expect professional miners to say
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Weir certainly has his fan boy's, talking up his abilities, making ridiculous threats.
Accept the fact that his actual abilities as a pilot got him where he is today.
TC nailed it.
Accept the fact that his actual abilities as a pilot got him where he is today.
TC nailed it.
This thread together with the report should be classroom reading for all future CRM / human factor presentations (together with the damning footage of his aerial exploits).
With luck and a following wind it has already slowed other cowboys down sufficiently to reconsider their attitude towards committing aviation. Unfortunately for the rest - we await their demise and future debate on Pprune about their propensity to defy the fundamental laws of physics and common sense.
With luck and a following wind it has already slowed other cowboys down sufficiently to reconsider their attitude towards committing aviation. Unfortunately for the rest - we await their demise and future debate on Pprune about their propensity to defy the fundamental laws of physics and common sense.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ppheli
I used the same technique to get my excavator up an icy road - 33% slope - a couple of years back. Not sure what the relevance is to flying heli's.
I used the same technique to get my excavator up an icy road - 33% slope - a couple of years back. Not sure what the relevance is to flying heli's.
ppheli
What are you on? There is nothing wrong with pulling a digger up a hill like that, done everyday all over the world, in fact people pull landrovers up steep hills in competitions, even Top Gear tried it !
I am not condoning his piloting / command abilities as that has been answered.
What are you on? There is nothing wrong with pulling a digger up a hill like that, done everyday all over the world, in fact people pull landrovers up steep hills in competitions, even Top Gear tried it !
I am not condoning his piloting / command abilities as that has been answered.