The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Snarlie
It will all depend on the what is
The company will have a duty of care towards the whole crew within the SAR aircraft so if the SAR experience is very limited then I would expect the very experienced ex Seaking Captain to be given the post. There are many precedents to ignoring the seniority list when when selecting Captains. I was made a Captain within 6 months of joining a NS operator - despite being near the bottom of the seniority list because I was more experienced than those above me for the role of a single pilot offshore based operation.
HF
a fully qualified S92 captain with limited SAR experience but loads of time on the aircraft and seniority in the company plus membership of BALPA - who gets the nod? I think I know the answer but I would be interested to hear other views.
limited SAR experience
HF
212man - unfortunately, although SAR does technically come under the state provisions, the CAA attitude seems to be that, where possible, states should operate iaw EASA rules. I presume all the police pilots have EASA licences because of that.
There is also a question whether you can fly an aircraft on the EASA list without an EASA licence.
Macaco - yes I would expect to be bonded for the IR and do it whilst on the type conversion course.
HF - it would seem the CAA have switched off the link between S61 and Sea King which seems odd, especially since the differences in engines and FCUs don't really affect the way it flies on instruments!
As for how the manpower pans out - since Portland will close, there will be a whole flights-worth of 139 crews who will just need a differences course to convert to 189 and a change of address to Swansea if they want to stay in the Southern half of the country unless Wattisham is moved to Manston.
There will be 2 full flights-worth of S92 crews at Stornoway and Sumburgh who will probably want to move South (or maybe they do like it up there
)
That leaves 6 flights (in terms of numbers) to fill with some S92 and some 189.
The RN will try and grab all the slots at St Mawgan and Glasgow (if that is where Culdrose and Prestwick move to) leaving 4 flights to fill from other civvy posts in the company or RAF ship-jumpers who don't fancy SH or flying desks.
It will be an interesting few months...
There is also a question whether you can fly an aircraft on the EASA list without an EASA licence.
Macaco - yes I would expect to be bonded for the IR and do it whilst on the type conversion course.
HF - it would seem the CAA have switched off the link between S61 and Sea King which seems odd, especially since the differences in engines and FCUs don't really affect the way it flies on instruments!
As for how the manpower pans out - since Portland will close, there will be a whole flights-worth of 139 crews who will just need a differences course to convert to 189 and a change of address to Swansea if they want to stay in the Southern half of the country unless Wattisham is moved to Manston.
There will be 2 full flights-worth of S92 crews at Stornoway and Sumburgh who will probably want to move South (or maybe they do like it up there
)That leaves 6 flights (in terms of numbers) to fill with some S92 and some 189.
The RN will try and grab all the slots at St Mawgan and Glasgow (if that is where Culdrose and Prestwick move to) leaving 4 flights to fill from other civvy posts in the company or RAF ship-jumpers who don't fancy SH or flying desks.
It will be an interesting few months...
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Age: 78
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I would have preferred for this work to have remained in the hands of the military, I am glad that it went to Bristows who (afaik) were pioneers in privatised SAR in the UK and still have the appearance of being a partly British company.
It will be interesting to discover whether the resilience aspects of the final outcome result in crews needing to be qualified for all the type on the contract.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For example, if the organisation is faced with two candidates for a command position, one ex RAF Sea King driver weighed down with medals and cuttings from newspapers, not to mention Pprune posts and the other a fully qualified S92 captain with limited SAR experience but loads of time on the aircraft and seniority in the company plus membership of BALPA - who gets the nod? I think I know the answer but I would be interested to hear other views.
18th Mar 2013 10:55
18th Mar 2013 10:55
1. Do they meet the minimum contractual requirement for experience levels. This tends to favour the ex military and others may have to serve time waiting for this before Command.
2. Do they have a type rating. This will save you 30k on an S92 or 50K on an AW139. Plus the cost of wages while your pilot is away being type rated. This favours existing civvie pilots.
3. Do they work for a major competitor of yours. This is the icing on the cake if you can get a qualified guy and sting your competitor for retraining costs at the same time!! This one is interesting because it actually discriminates against people already in your Company but is a very valid commercial reason.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: England
Age: 43
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering on peoples views regarding the maintenance implications and how this will likely be affected?
Currently i believe there are around 24 Engineers per site, any idea what these figures may drop to per site? What the make up might be ratio wise B1.3/B2/Tech
If maintenance is likely to be carryied out at each site or at a central service location.
Also the likely hood that some guys might get brought over and if this info would be released by Bristows sonner rather than later?
I.e Jump now or hold on to the little ray of light at the end of current SAR
Currently i believe there are around 24 Engineers per site, any idea what these figures may drop to per site? What the make up might be ratio wise B1.3/B2/Tech
If maintenance is likely to be carryied out at each site or at a central service location.
Also the likely hood that some guys might get brought over and if this info would be released by Bristows sonner rather than later?
I.e Jump now or hold on to the little ray of light at the end of current SAR
Last edited by seaking22; 19th Mar 2013 at 17:21.
That is very naughty of the CAA. The Sea King was always considered 'same type' for licence purposes when " I were a lad". All it required was 30 minutes with staneval / 1179 and you licence got S61 on it!
New sites are complemented for between 6-8 engineers TOTAL. The mil are always top heavy and this is another reason why running civvy SAR will be much much cheaper (and easier). Even with the profit margin built in
It's not called the 'managed path' it's managed route or something else (name escapes me). The bottom line is this and Bristows (oops sorry) ahem the winner will have to be prepared to accept that the RAF are NOT repeat NOT going to release a load of SAR qual'd pilots/aircrepersons onto the market place. They will be looking at their interests initially and then the interests of the individual second. I estimate that out of a total of 25 extra crews needed, the winner will be 50% short of staff
New sites are complemented for between 6-8 engineers TOTAL. The mil are always top heavy and this is another reason why running civvy SAR will be much much cheaper (and easier). Even with the profit margin built in
It's not called the 'managed path' it's managed route or something else (name escapes me). The bottom line is this and Bristows (oops sorry) ahem the winner will have to be prepared to accept that the RAF are NOT repeat NOT going to release a load of SAR qual'd pilots/aircrepersons onto the market place. They will be looking at their interests initially and then the interests of the individual second. I estimate that out of a total of 25 extra crews needed, the winner will be 50% short of staff
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 19th Mar 2013 at 19:11.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: in my house
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there are 8 per site as min of 2 per shift reqd (on 92 bases). 24h on 24h off on the current roster. theres also a labourer and a chief engineer.
139 bases work different hours but would envisage the same as h&s doesnt allow working on your own.
139 bases work different hours but would envisage the same as h&s doesnt allow working on your own.
The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Jim671
What are you saying? That there more ac than you have been insisting will be the case whilst you were casting doom and gloom with your BFF? I am sure you said if that was the case you would admit you had been wrong! I can find the post if needed
What are you saying? That there more ac than you have been insisting will be the case whilst you were casting doom and gloom with your BFF? I am sure you said if that was the case you would admit you had been wrong! I can find the post if needed
Yes, snake, it's true. You were right about something. 
No need to search for the post. You're behind the curve again because in anticipation of a 10 aircraft solution being announced I have already put out feelers for another Agusta Westland mug to replace the one I have promised to smash!
The original contract notice and all publicly available DfT documents do not specify the number of aircraft. It was up to the bidders to risk assess and to propose a scheme that achieved the required availability. The world changed on 22nd of October. It hasn't yet changed back. We shall soon see what effect that has had.
No need to search for the post. You're behind the curve again because in anticipation of a 10 aircraft solution being announced I have already put out feelers for another Agusta Westland mug to replace the one I have promised to smash!
The original contract notice and all publicly available DfT documents do not specify the number of aircraft. It was up to the bidders to risk assess and to propose a scheme that achieved the required availability. The world changed on 22nd of October. It hasn't yet changed back. We shall soon see what effect that has had.
The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
I don't believe I've been wrong about anything yet? Not that I've said much just had a positive mental attitude instead of a we're all doomed attitude
With all this rumour and speculation it would be good to think our over cautious beaurocrats in the DfT will get their bosses to say something "official" very soon.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: England
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that insight, and the correct spelling!
I had hoped we would have a choice of contractors to work for but it seems its gonna be Hobson's Choice if the rumours are right.
I had hoped we would have a choice of contractors to work for but it seems its gonna be Hobson's Choice if the rumours are right.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Away with the Fairies
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2 bidder solution?
The main thing against a 2 bidder solution, Jim, is cost. 2 seperate contracts, 2 companies, 2 sets of HQ/mangement/training etc would more than likely cost more than a single bidder solution. This would sound pretty appealing at a time when budgets are being cut again.
Yes, 2 contactors mitigates a certain amount of risk should one company fail to deliver for whatever reason, but I'm lead to believe that there's some sort of mechanism in the contact that allows the Govt to step in and run the service for a short time (using that contactors personnel and aircraft) in that situation, giving a continuity of service and allowing some time to rectify the situation.
Yes, 2 contactors mitigates a certain amount of risk should one company fail to deliver for whatever reason, but I'm lead to believe that there's some sort of mechanism in the contact that allows the Govt to step in and run the service for a short time (using that contactors personnel and aircraft) in that situation, giving a continuity of service and allowing some time to rectify the situation.
Last edited by No Vote Joe; 21st Mar 2013 at 07:57.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bristow operated in four locations for 20 years as a sole provider without any issues. Should be no reason they can't do the same again in 10 bases for 13-17 years, particularly now they are a much bigger company with more financial clout.
The main thing against a 2 bidder solution, Jim, is cost. ...
... a time when budgets are being cut again. ...
... I'm lead to believe that there's some sort of mechanism in the contact that allows the Govt to step in and run the service for a short time (using that contactors personnel and aircraft) in that situation, giving a continuity of service and allowing some time to rectify the situation.
... Should be no reason they can't do the same again in 10 bases for 13-17 years, ...