The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Jim - the boys and girls do an excellent job in the ARCCK - I was just highlighting that they are not perfect (which I am sure they would admit) and that some mistakes can be put down to lack of exposure to front-line SAR duties.
The MCA don't pay their boys and girls very much and, whilst most of them are hardworking and diligent, there is a lot of variation across the country from quite outstanding to the very dire when it comes to controlling airborne assets.
The MCA don't pay their boys and girls very much and, whilst most of them are hardworking and diligent, there is a lot of variation across the country from quite outstanding to the very dire when it comes to controlling airborne assets.
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The '60 s ? Crab?
CRAB - are you suggesting that we should equate the equipment, protocols and procedures that will be in use during the next decade are on a par with those in use in the '60s? You may find a few colleagues who disagree with that assertion.
The essence of my post is that we have a tradition of getting the best out of whatever equipment we are given and I doubt that any perceived lack of capability on your part will be sufficient to bring about any mass protests in Parliament Square. The job will be done, low cabin ceilings or no low cabin ceilings! I think our lads and lasses are made of sterner stuff.
G.
The essence of my post is that we have a tradition of getting the best out of whatever equipment we are given and I doubt that any perceived lack of capability on your part will be sufficient to bring about any mass protests in Parliament Square. The job will be done, low cabin ceilings or no low cabin ceilings! I think our lads and lasses are made of sterner stuff.
G.
Geoffers: You have hit the nail on the head - absolutely.
The public couldn't care less what goes on with this SAR contract, it probably barely registers on the richter scale for joe average. All this bickering is in house barrack room bickering about who has the biggest willy.
Now - the government AND INDUSTRY know this, which is why "close enough will do" - will......do! Whether the AW189 with extended fuel tanks and icing clearance can carry 9 pax standing upright in the back - just flew way way way over the heads of the bloke standing next to you in the pub.(pun not intended)
This is why - all one CAN hope for is that INTERNALLY, the operatives do the best they can with the equipment on hand...and safely.
It's happening to the national police air support units - does anyone here really know what is going on during nationalisation? Do they CARE?
You can sell anything to joe/joanne public as previous governments have shown...what matters is how it's managed when the wheel falls off. [And governments have a solution for this..........they move on before it falls off
]
The public couldn't care less what goes on with this SAR contract, it probably barely registers on the richter scale for joe average. All this bickering is in house barrack room bickering about who has the biggest willy.
Now - the government AND INDUSTRY know this, which is why "close enough will do" - will......do! Whether the AW189 with extended fuel tanks and icing clearance can carry 9 pax standing upright in the back - just flew way way way over the heads of the bloke standing next to you in the pub.(pun not intended)
This is why - all one CAN hope for is that INTERNALLY, the operatives do the best they can with the equipment on hand...and safely.
It's happening to the national police air support units - does anyone here really know what is going on during nationalisation? Do they CARE?
You can sell anything to joe/joanne public as previous governments have shown...what matters is how it's managed when the wheel falls off. [And governments have a solution for this..........they move on before it falls off
]
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 24th Nov 2012 at 10:46.
Geoffers - on one hand you have said that no-one from the past complained about being rescued or doctored because the technology was of the time and on the other you don't think capability that exists at the moment should be protected and then enhanced in the future.
I completely agree that no-one really cares outside those of us in SAR - the same as no-one really cares about your concerns over pilot quality that you have alluded to on other threads - as long as the job gets done (however badly) the bean counters go away happy and the contract boxes keep getting ticked.
This just isn't sustainable because unless those of us in the know make our concerns loud and clear, the erosion of skill end expertise will continue until it gets so bad that a catastrophe occurs. Then everyone throws their hands in the air wondering how this has happened and the recovery of the capability becomes very expensive.
Internally everyone will do their best but why should they be hamstrung with equipment that is not fit for purpose?
I know you and TC are both ex-RN which may go some way to explain your lack of concern for the working conditions of the rearcrew but DfT will look very stupid when there are a spate of back and knee injuries to SAR rearcrew due to the low cabin ceiling and SAR flts are off state - it is much like the pickle we find ourselves in now because upper management ignored all the warnings they were given about SAR rearcrew manning for many years.
I completely agree that no-one really cares outside those of us in SAR - the same as no-one really cares about your concerns over pilot quality that you have alluded to on other threads - as long as the job gets done (however badly) the bean counters go away happy and the contract boxes keep getting ticked.
This just isn't sustainable because unless those of us in the know make our concerns loud and clear, the erosion of skill end expertise will continue until it gets so bad that a catastrophe occurs. Then everyone throws their hands in the air wondering how this has happened and the recovery of the capability becomes very expensive.
Internally everyone will do their best but why should they be hamstrung with equipment that is not fit for purpose?
I know you and TC are both ex-RN which may go some way to explain your lack of concern for the working conditions of the rearcrew but DfT will look very stupid when there are a spate of back and knee injuries to SAR rearcrew due to the low cabin ceiling and SAR flts are off state - it is much like the pickle we find ourselves in now because upper management ignored all the warnings they were given about SAR rearcrew manning for many years.
SAR Owl - yes if they had just made the cabin 2m tall instead of 1.4m.
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We prophets of doom....
... you are right Crab, as I pronounce the lack of competence in the global pilot workforce I am deafened by the silence and disinterest and in that respect I must empathise with your concern.
Unfortunately the reality we must both face up to is that the only joy we will experience will be Pyrrhic. When it all turns to rat-s**t we can claim, from our bath-chairs, that "We told you so."
I don't expect this conclusion will make you feel at ease about this dilemma but for those of us who used to be where you are and know what you are talking about we are just far enough away from the coal-face to realise that in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter one iota - the NHS will pick up the broken bodies and the compensation payments to crippled back-seaters will come out of another budget.
G.
Unfortunately the reality we must both face up to is that the only joy we will experience will be Pyrrhic. When it all turns to rat-s**t we can claim, from our bath-chairs, that "We told you so."
I don't expect this conclusion will make you feel at ease about this dilemma but for those of us who used to be where you are and know what you are talking about we are just far enough away from the coal-face to realise that in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter one iota - the NHS will pick up the broken bodies and the compensation payments to crippled back-seaters will come out of another budget.
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 24th Nov 2012 at 11:36.
Does Joe Public care?
If it appears on the TV news that £3bn has been wasted on something sub-standard then quite possibly. That will take a tragic event to highlight it unfortunately.
Privatization:
Can it all go wrong?
Is there any way back?
Better ask the Swedes.
If it appears on the TV news that £3bn has been wasted on something sub-standard then quite possibly. That will take a tragic event to highlight it unfortunately.
Privatization:
Can it all go wrong?
Is there any way back?
Better ask the Swedes.
Sad but true Geoffers - doesn't make it any easier to watch the slow motion car crash though
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More questions asked of the DfT by the Transport Committee about their procurement process and lack of public consultation
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...elicopters.pdf
We will have to wait and see if they can keep everyone happy and still get the tender out!
SM
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...elicopters.pdf
We will have to wait and see if they can keep everyone happy and still get the tender out!
SM
She askes a lot of pertinent questions in that letter and I don't think she will like some of the answers, especially when it comes to the closure of 2 bases (even if one is not 24 hours) being all about saving money.
As for military involvement - it was specified (albeit vaguely) in the last process and should be in this one, but because SAR has slipped off MoD's to do list and the contractors (so far) won't make any commitment to directly transferring mil crews to civ and DfT just want the contract signed it won't happen.
As for military involvement - it was specified (albeit vaguely) in the last process and should be in this one, but because SAR has slipped off MoD's to do list and the contractors (so far) won't make any commitment to directly transferring mil crews to civ and DfT just want the contract signed it won't happen.
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Crab still trying to get straight in that door, sorry mate firmly shut, so do it the way all the ex mil guys did....join a 'Q' after jumping through all the hoops. On the bright side they will need someone to whinge & bitch to management about the problems and issues with the Civvie platforms, equipment & training shortfalls so you would be ideal...seriously. They will need an experienced SAR person to do that 'bombing run', you'll eventually get shot down though or just ignored like the MOD have done to you. Your mission....
Crab still trying to get straight in that door, sorry mate firmly shut
Many a slip twixt cup and lip as the saying goes
But how many in that queue are current UKSAR/NVG experienced?
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None of the RAF/RN were before NVG's and as for SAR training well nice if they have it, if not then it's co pilot training first. Yes we'll no doubt need those RN chaps with a licence in the wings.
Ahh: The managed transition oh wise one. That time frame between endex milSAR and comex civSAR.
Let's see what the pool consists of and what the demands are:
How many crews does Long SAR need to comply with its regulatory comittments? How many milSAR crews does the MoD want to get shot of.
Assume the following position
CivSAR may only need half of the (possibly) 16 crew complements for the (possibly) 16 new a/c. The rest come from civ industry.
Some milSAR crews may wish to stay on and further their career in SH.
Some milSAR will find that private schooling is not an option in civSAR.
Some milSAR will not wish to fly in certain geographic areas of the UK.
Some milSAR have already missed the ATPL(H) bus.
Assume, as a result of the above, there are too many places and too few applying. Will the managed transition cater for this or will we see a lot of mil pilots left high and dry? Because, believe me the MoD want shot of SAR.
Who will manage the "Managed Path" oh wise one
Who cometh over the horizon............................................
Let's see what the pool consists of and what the demands are:
How many crews does Long SAR need to comply with its regulatory comittments? How many milSAR crews does the MoD want to get shot of.
Assume the following position
CivSAR may only need half of the (possibly) 16 crew complements for the (possibly) 16 new a/c. The rest come from civ industry.
Some milSAR crews may wish to stay on and further their career in SH.
Some milSAR will find that private schooling is not an option in civSAR.
Some milSAR will not wish to fly in certain geographic areas of the UK.
Some milSAR have already missed the ATPL(H) bus.
Assume, as a result of the above, there are too many places and too few applying. Will the managed transition cater for this or will we see a lot of mil pilots left high and dry? Because, believe me the MoD want shot of SAR.
Who will manage the "Managed Path" oh wise one
Who cometh over the horizon............................................
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 28th Nov 2012 at 16:12.
