The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Wiretensioner / Vie...whatever / Lioncopter, you are what we term: bottom feeders: end users who come into work each day, do a solid days work, earn a decent crust and get fed (info) from above, (if they remember) occasionally.
You know very little of what is going on - and to be honest, you are not expected to either.
The water boiler was a side show, bringing in some light relief. But please believe this when I tell you - it serves absolutely NO purpose whatsoever in front line life saving missions. It is a typical RAF bolt on accessory about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Vie: why do you think the RAF are so important as to be the default for SAR advice? The RN were doing SAR before the RAF could spell it
As it happens the work stream for this current SAR project (Long SAR) is driven by a very competent civil servant and a Commodore. The consultancy firm is well versed in SAR doctrine. You MUST give other people credibility and you must aslo accept that perhaps people like you don't know it all. [Because you only operate in a tiny part of the jigsaw]. Civvies around the world have been doing SAR for decades, it is NOT a fine art (as the RAF would like it to be - to justify their empire), it is for most military units throughout the world a SECONDARY ROLE. It is not nuclear science and most of all Civvies do it very very well indeed.
Lioncopter: The CAA have issued NVD certification to several AOC's (The police for instance); they have already formalised applications for SARH NVD Ops. Again, not a difficult evolution and one which future operators will take to overnight.
Try and look at the big picture. Future civvy SAR service isn't going to see massive degradation. It will see change (and for some long in the tooth, has been's) and it will take time. But change it will, adapt it will and develop it will. With better. cheaper, more reliable aircraft. Civilian crews infused with military experience will run the service FAR FAR more effectively and financially more efficiently than any military outfit. Move on guys.
4thright: It is my personal view that the ARCC might eventually be re-located to the MCA HQ @ Southampton (but still retain uniformed personnel).
You know very little of what is going on - and to be honest, you are not expected to either.
The water boiler was a side show, bringing in some light relief. But please believe this when I tell you - it serves absolutely NO purpose whatsoever in front line life saving missions. It is a typical RAF bolt on accessory about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Vie: why do you think the RAF are so important as to be the default for SAR advice? The RN were doing SAR before the RAF could spell it
As it happens the work stream for this current SAR project (Long SAR) is driven by a very competent civil servant and a Commodore. The consultancy firm is well versed in SAR doctrine. You MUST give other people credibility and you must aslo accept that perhaps people like you don't know it all. [Because you only operate in a tiny part of the jigsaw]. Civvies around the world have been doing SAR for decades, it is NOT a fine art (as the RAF would like it to be - to justify their empire), it is for most military units throughout the world a SECONDARY ROLE. It is not nuclear science and most of all Civvies do it very very well indeed.
Lioncopter: The CAA have issued NVD certification to several AOC's (The police for instance); they have already formalised applications for SARH NVD Ops. Again, not a difficult evolution and one which future operators will take to overnight.
Try and look at the big picture. Future civvy SAR service isn't going to see massive degradation. It will see change (and for some long in the tooth, has been's) and it will take time. But change it will, adapt it will and develop it will. With better. cheaper, more reliable aircraft. Civilian crews infused with military experience will run the service FAR FAR more effectively and financially more efficiently than any military outfit. Move on guys.
4thright: It is my personal view that the ARCC might eventually be re-located to the MCA HQ @ Southampton (but still retain uniformed personnel).
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 24th May 2012 at 09:57.
Ted,
Actually about three years ago! And I would still be doing so if I had my way!
I know very well what the engineers do.... I am one!!!!!
3D
P.S.
Do you know me?? If not, don't get personal. I like to think that I was/ am helpful in my job, to the best of my ability anyway.
I don't expect, nor want a reply. Lets keep the thread on track.
When did you last do something to 'help out' i.e. go beyond watching people work and offer assistance?!
I know very well what the engineers do.... I am one!!!!!
3D
P.S.
Do you know me?? If not, don't get personal. I like to think that I was/ am helpful in my job, to the best of my ability anyway.
I don't expect, nor want a reply. Lets keep the thread on track.
I agree with much of what TC says.
However, the p1ssing contest between the MCA and the MoD, equalled only by the similar contest between the RAF and RN, continues to prevent proper analysis of the existing task and preparation for the new one. This scene of division leaves an open door for those skilled at grabbing extra slices of the taxpayers' dosh, detracting from Treasury and DfT objectives of good value and fair competition.
The ARCC should be in the hands of those who know about aeronautical matters, about rescue and about co-ordination. This means there are no options better than leaving it as it is.
However, the p1ssing contest between the MCA and the MoD, equalled only by the similar contest between the RAF and RN, continues to prevent proper analysis of the existing task and preparation for the new one. This scene of division leaves an open door for those skilled at grabbing extra slices of the taxpayers' dosh, detracting from Treasury and DfT objectives of good value and fair competition.
The ARCC should be in the hands of those who know about aeronautical matters, about rescue and about co-ordination. This means there are no options better than leaving it as it is.
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TC - I read much of what you said with little concern and much agreement.
However, I do not agree with several points/facts.
Firstly, it is not so that most other militaries view SAR as a secondary role. Many see it as a a significant primary role, and indeed many smaller countries have it as one of the few primary roles they operate at all. Indeed it can be argued that the UK over recent decades has been one of the few European nations to eschew military ownership of SAR as a primary or secondary role.
As for your statement that the RN operated SAR a very long time before the RAF reflects a lack of knowledge of the actual UK service history on this. This is so whether you look at purely rotary SAR or go back to early pre WW2 days and review what happened during that War - with of course the rescue means being via launch, pure fixed wing or with flying boats. This of course is not meant to detract from the very fine contribution that the RN has made to SAR over the decades too.
I do support your opinion that the ARCC will close - probably after the MoD finally loses its last SK SAR flight, and it becomes logical to colocate it with some MCA MRCC somewhere. Should we worry about this - well maybe if it loses its expertise on overall rescue coordination and any specific aviation and overland focus it now has
Ho Hum - now thats a bteer thread already with no sign of coffee boilers anywhere!
However, I do not agree with several points/facts.
Firstly, it is not so that most other militaries view SAR as a secondary role. Many see it as a a significant primary role, and indeed many smaller countries have it as one of the few primary roles they operate at all. Indeed it can be argued that the UK over recent decades has been one of the few European nations to eschew military ownership of SAR as a primary or secondary role.
As for your statement that the RN operated SAR a very long time before the RAF reflects a lack of knowledge of the actual UK service history on this. This is so whether you look at purely rotary SAR or go back to early pre WW2 days and review what happened during that War - with of course the rescue means being via launch, pure fixed wing or with flying boats. This of course is not meant to detract from the very fine contribution that the RN has made to SAR over the decades too.
I do support your opinion that the ARCC will close - probably after the MoD finally loses its last SK SAR flight, and it becomes logical to colocate it with some MCA MRCC somewhere. Should we worry about this - well maybe if it loses its expertise on overall rescue coordination and any specific aviation and overland focus it now has
Ho Hum - now thats a bteer thread already with no sign of coffee boilers anywhere!
You have to understand that TC's bitterness comes from his predicament - ex RN (not real SAR though) and resigned to working on a daily basis where he gets to see an almost endless stream of professional RAF SAR pilots put through their paces and producing performances that he and his 'secondary role' chums would struggle to match
If you want mil pers in the ARRCK in a different location then Swanwick would be a much better choice than MCA HQ.
The RAF is facing a glut of pilots and a shortage of helicopters - just give us some shiny new S92s and let us get on with the job.
If you want mil pers in the ARRCK in a different location then Swanwick would be a much better choice than MCA HQ.
The RAF is facing a glut of pilots and a shortage of helicopters - just give us some shiny new S92s and let us get on with the job.
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The RAF is facing a glut of pilots and a shortage of helicopters - just give us some shiny new S92s and let us get on with the job
I take that your CV is with CHC/Bristow then?
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Crab....ha ha
Don't worry, Crab already has his CV in, but I slipped it to the bottom in the HR pile of ---
Straws, grasping at......'Give us S92's...
ARRCK?.......Will be MCA soon enough, why waste money moving it twice?
Surplus of crab pilots..some new Chinook's inbound, get in SH and go front line again with those fantastic skills that only the RAF pilots have.
Straws, grasping at......'Give us S92's...
ARRCK?.......Will be MCA soon enough, why waste money moving it twice?
Surplus of crab pilots..some new Chinook's inbound, get in SH and go front line again with those fantastic skills that only the RAF pilots have.
Will be MCA soon enough, why waste money moving it twice
get in SH and go front line again
With my PA pension I could always offer to work for less than all the civvy pilots in SAR - would that go down well?
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DfT reps and other 'heads of sheds' at RAF Valley recently to see what training for SAR involves. The questions asked confirmed that the future SAR service will be incompetent at best, and lethal at times. The guys making the aircraft and training specific decisions are accountants.
IE.
'Why do we need rearcrew?'
'Why does a qualified pilot need to keep training?'
'Why can't an NHS paramedic do shifts as a winchman without training - it seems he just hangs there.'
Nope, I am NOT joking.
Lives will be lost. I have said it before and will keep saying it.
IE.
'Why do we need rearcrew?'
'Why does a qualified pilot need to keep training?'
'Why can't an NHS paramedic do shifts as a winchman without training - it seems he just hangs there.'
Nope, I am NOT joking.
Lives will be lost. I have said it before and will keep saying it.
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I thought the majority of winchman are NHS paramedics!!! There was me thinking this thread was sarting to get adult like again.
Last edited by Helimed24; 25th May 2012 at 20:20.
Skills such as chopping sandfilters off
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 25th May 2012 at 20:46.
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and on, and on and ...
Once again this thread becomes ... "the only people who can do SAR properly are the RAF!".
Regardless of where you sit - the RN, RAF and MCA have been carrying out SAR with great success for decades now, each with their own SOPs. Yet again I struggle to understand why supposedly professional aviators are so blinkered and arrogant to assume that its their way or the highway ...
SAR is going to civilianise - there are hurdles to overcome - but a more capable and modern aircraft crewed by both ex military and civilian crews, will deliver a capability on a par. I have no doubt that some refuse to believe this and struggle to comprehend how this capability could be provided by anybody other than themselves. The military of all three services has changed beyond all recognition in recent years and rightly the priority now is the Front Line (= war fighting capability) ... SAR is a second line capability and when you consider the savings that can be made just in manpower terms it makes complete sense for this to be handed over to the DfT - the MoD has far more important battles (literally) to win.
As for NVG, ex mil experience will provide the backbone of a training programme that will provide for all - the structures required for civilian clearance already exist (EASA and CAA).
Regardless of where you sit - the RN, RAF and MCA have been carrying out SAR with great success for decades now, each with their own SOPs. Yet again I struggle to understand why supposedly professional aviators are so blinkered and arrogant to assume that its their way or the highway ...
SAR is going to civilianise - there are hurdles to overcome - but a more capable and modern aircraft crewed by both ex military and civilian crews, will deliver a capability on a par. I have no doubt that some refuse to believe this and struggle to comprehend how this capability could be provided by anybody other than themselves. The military of all three services has changed beyond all recognition in recent years and rightly the priority now is the Front Line (= war fighting capability) ... SAR is a second line capability and when you consider the savings that can be made just in manpower terms it makes complete sense for this to be handed over to the DfT - the MoD has far more important battles (literally) to win.
As for NVG, ex mil experience will provide the backbone of a training programme that will provide for all - the structures required for civilian clearance already exist (EASA and CAA).