Dramatic lake rescue footage released
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oscardog - that is one way but as with the red astar, gets you very close to the water and also plays havoc with the c of g.
What i am trying to suggest is a cargo hook (or if you don't have one installed) a belly band system that i believe is allowed in the US for emergency situations. I have used one for many years and they work very well as a basic cargo hook. A 100kg man would be no problem for it! This method keeps the rotorwash out of the victims face and also stops the chance of capsizing a boat etc etc Very easy to teach the crew to do and cheap to buy the equipment. It's not taking away the use of winched SAR machines, just an addition to the services they could provide A win, win .... Now when do all the Police and HEMS operations sign up to this?
P.S OAMTC do this type of rescue day in day out in the mountains. Yes they use a cargo hook on there 135's but then they are doing much more serious stuff. This is a basic recue method that doesn't cost much at all but if it saves 1 life isn't it worth it?
What i am trying to suggest is a cargo hook (or if you don't have one installed) a belly band system that i believe is allowed in the US for emergency situations. I have used one for many years and they work very well as a basic cargo hook. A 100kg man would be no problem for it! This method keeps the rotorwash out of the victims face and also stops the chance of capsizing a boat etc etc Very easy to teach the crew to do and cheap to buy the equipment. It's not taking away the use of winched SAR machines, just an addition to the services they could provide A win, win .... Now when do all the Police and HEMS operations sign up to this?
P.S OAMTC do this type of rescue day in day out in the mountains. Yes they use a cargo hook on there 135's but then they are doing much more serious stuff. This is a basic recue method that doesn't cost much at all but if it saves 1 life isn't it worth it?
This is not quite as easy as it is being made out to be; these operations will have to be carried out in accordance with HEC Class D - all mean of lifting (hook, attachment, line and PCDS) will have to be certificated in accordance with Part 27/29.
This is no different from the US (which also needs approval in accordance with Part 133); just because 'public use' in the US manages to avoid regulation does not mean that it is OK. The FAA do not condone such practices (read the recent thread on the S92 hoist). Read also the NTSB (and HAI) views on 'public use' aircraft (for the NTSB, the S61 fire fighting accident has a good spread of views).
If this is to be done by HEMS or Police it will have to be done in a considered way; the mere thought of attaching a lifting device to 'harness' hard points sends shivers up my spine. Short Haul is not an ad hoc activity, it has to be done under controlled conditions.
Jim
This is no different from the US (which also needs approval in accordance with Part 133); just because 'public use' in the US manages to avoid regulation does not mean that it is OK. The FAA do not condone such practices (read the recent thread on the S92 hoist). Read also the NTSB (and HAI) views on 'public use' aircraft (for the NTSB, the S61 fire fighting accident has a good spread of views).
If this is to be done by HEMS or Police it will have to be done in a considered way; the mere thought of attaching a lifting device to 'harness' hard points sends shivers up my spine. Short Haul is not an ad hoc activity, it has to be done under controlled conditions.
Jim
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Seems to me that financial constraints mean we in UK will have less SAR cover. Beefing about it won't find more money.
Answer this theoretical question:
In a parallel universe, where this guy goes into the lake 3 years from now, does he still die or would the crew have the ability to save him?
Either we sit back and see more people die (still won't generate more money; there is no money!) or we look for other solutions. Like this crew did, but failed.
I am not saying its easy, that there should not be training, or that there are no regulations to consider. But by trying to work together (not me; I know nothing - but lots of you on this forum are experts) to get another - less good, I agree - solution has got to be worth our effort.
I'll shut-up now
John
Answer this theoretical question:
In a parallel universe, where this guy goes into the lake 3 years from now, does he still die or would the crew have the ability to save him?
Either we sit back and see more people die (still won't generate more money; there is no money!) or we look for other solutions. Like this crew did, but failed.
I am not saying its easy, that there should not be training, or that there are no regulations to consider. But by trying to work together (not me; I know nothing - but lots of you on this forum are experts) to get another - less good, I agree - solution has got to be worth our effort.
I'll shut-up now
John
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Scrawny -
Our volunteeer SAR team (of which I'm a member) is trained in HETS (longline/short haul rescue). We also have a basket in our kit very similar to what the USCG uses. When we do a HETS mission, the time for us to respond and go through the necessary processes it takes to conduct the mission means it will be at least an hour and more likely two before the rescue itself commences. In this case we weren't called out as flat ice rescue is done by the Fire Department. This rescue was initiated by the fortunate arrival of the pilot and one of the rescuers on their way back to the heliport after lunch. They were able to call ahead and have the machine running and ready to go when they got there. Hence the skid rescue method. In a normal HETS mission, the team would get to the pad, fly to the scene for a recce, land somewhere close by, configure the machine, and do the rescue. It's not fast. We never fly anywhere with the machine rigged and the basket inside. Also keep in mind, the subject is useless and you will need a rescuer in the water with him. In this case we would put a rescuer in the basket and drop him next to the subject. The rescuer then gets the subject in the basket and the aircraft departs.
Our volunteeer SAR team (of which I'm a member) is trained in HETS (longline/short haul rescue). We also have a basket in our kit very similar to what the USCG uses. When we do a HETS mission, the time for us to respond and go through the necessary processes it takes to conduct the mission means it will be at least an hour and more likely two before the rescue itself commences. In this case we weren't called out as flat ice rescue is done by the Fire Department. This rescue was initiated by the fortunate arrival of the pilot and one of the rescuers on their way back to the heliport after lunch. They were able to call ahead and have the machine running and ready to go when they got there. Hence the skid rescue method. In a normal HETS mission, the team would get to the pad, fly to the scene for a recce, land somewhere close by, configure the machine, and do the rescue. It's not fast. We never fly anywhere with the machine rigged and the basket inside. Also keep in mind, the subject is useless and you will need a rescuer in the water with him. In this case we would put a rescuer in the basket and drop him next to the subject. The rescuer then gets the subject in the basket and the aircraft departs.
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Police Helos in Oz all have winches (in addition to all the Police equipment) and crews who are trained to use them. No biggie really, just need to pay for the winch ($200,000 for a Goodrich), and then train (and keep current) your police crewies. It's not that hard for most things.
Granted (and I'm writing this as Crab is already typing furiously) that some of the bigger things such as night maritime rescues should be left to the big boys and the big toys. Everything else however is pretty simple. In this case, a straight forward double lift (hypothermic if the chap was in the water for a long time).
My personal opinion is that the CAA make it so
hard for the civvies to do anything the rest of the world has been doing for years (winching, fast roping, sniping, NVG etc) they should be sacked and you should start again.
An ideal time to look at how you do SAR I think. Imagine if half of your Police aircraft were winch fitted, how much help could they be.
Only my opinion though.......
Granted (and I'm writing this as Crab is already typing furiously) that some of the bigger things such as night maritime rescues should be left to the big boys and the big toys. Everything else however is pretty simple. In this case, a straight forward double lift (hypothermic if the chap was in the water for a long time).
My personal opinion is that the CAA make it so
hard for the civvies to do anything the rest of the world has been doing for years (winching, fast roping, sniping, NVG etc) they should be sacked and you should start again.An ideal time to look at how you do SAR I think. Imagine if half of your Police aircraft were winch fitted, how much help could they be.
Only my opinion though.......
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Aussie Rob - Very interesting. But what about a basic harness (on a 100ft line) that you can drop on top of the victim from a 50ft hover. Victim then puts over shoulders and then you go from 50-100ft, gently lift them 10ft and fly victim to the side of the lake?
Not knocking what you did in the pics as that takes alot of balls and isvery skifull...but there must be a simple way that can be taught. Real shame when the heli industry is so wrapped up in bull**** regs that we can't do basic rescues and people die? I'm not saying let all and sundry just do this but like under Part 133, just regulate it and make sure the people and companies doing it are well trained. It's not rocket science. You guys over there do much more serious and tough long line work than this. Even in Europe, OAMTC can do it, Rega can do it...Worse case scenario for HEMS & Police here a hook would cost roughly £20-30,000. Peanuts when considering the money that is already spent on the machines.
Not knocking what you did in the pics as that takes alot of balls and isvery skifull...but there must be a simple way that can be taught. Real shame when the heli industry is so wrapped up in bull**** regs that we can't do basic rescues and people die? I'm not saying let all and sundry just do this but like under Part 133, just regulate it and make sure the people and companies doing it are well trained. It's not rocket science. You guys over there do much more serious and tough long line work than this. Even in Europe, OAMTC can do it, Rega can do it...Worse case scenario for HEMS & Police here a hook would cost roughly £20-30,000. Peanuts when considering the money that is already spent on the machines.
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Scrawny -
You could probably fly a pre-rigged aircraft to a scene without issues and drop a harness on the end of a rope. (though this is against regs) The fundamental problem is you are relying on the subject to correctly get themselves in the harness. In my experience this is not going to happen for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, a subject's emergency is our routine response and sometimes that response is not fast enough. I know that may sound callous, but virtually all of our subjects are in a situation of their own making. The day we start cutting corners and doing the headless chicken to speed up a response, is the day we will start killing ourselves, and that is not going to happen.
You could probably fly a pre-rigged aircraft to a scene without issues and drop a harness on the end of a rope. (though this is against regs) The fundamental problem is you are relying on the subject to correctly get themselves in the harness. In my experience this is not going to happen for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, a subject's emergency is our routine response and sometimes that response is not fast enough. I know that may sound callous, but virtually all of our subjects are in a situation of their own making. The day we start cutting corners and doing the headless chicken to speed up a response, is the day we will start killing ourselves, and that is not going to happen.
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Either we sit back and see more people die (still won't generate more money; there is no money!) or we look for other solutions. Like this crew did, but failed
The single adult on the ice is often a dog owner who is trying to retrieve their (lower mass, unleashed) pet. Northern Ireland already has a dog license so there's already a facility to remind owners about stupid actions to try to reduce deaths/cost.
The park wardens who risked their lives to save the previous idiot were wise enough to spread their weight, gets a mention at the tail end of this coverage:
Man dies after frozen lake fall - Belfast Today
A MAN aged 51 has died after falling into a frozen lake in Lurgan Park on Sunday afternoon.
Two fire service crew and a paramedic also ended up in the water during an attempt to save the victim.
A police helicopter was tasked to the Co Armagh park at around 2pm, beginning a dramatic two-hour rescue bid involving around 100 members of the emergency services.
Eyewitnesses said that a police officer balancing on the skid of the helicopter helped hoist the man onto the ice.
However, as the drama unfolded, two fire service crew and a paramedic ended up in the lake when the inflatable boat they were in capsized.
It is understood two of them swam to shore, however one was rescued by the fire service special rescue team.
The victim was airlifted to hospital by an Irish Coast Guard helicopter which was tasked from Dublin.
A PSNI spokesperson said: "Using the police helicopter officers managed to hoist the man from the water onto the ice.
"As other emergency services tried to reach him in a boat in treacherous conditions, two fire service personnel and a paramedic fell into the water.
"Two of the three swam ashore and one was rescued by the fire service special rescue team.
"The three were later taken to hospital."
The victim was brought to shore and attended to by paramedics and an off-duty doctor who had been in the area at the time.
He was transferred to hospital by Coast Guard helicopter.
Police superintendent Alister Robinson, Commander for E District, said: "I have nothing but praise and admiration for all the emergency service personnel who attended the scene. All of them risked their lives. It is a testament to the bravery, skill and selfessness and cooperation of all the agencies that were present."
The PSNI has appealed for witnesses. A spokesperson said it is understood there were a number of people in the area at the time.
Sean McCann, Station Officer with the local Coast Guard, said a helicopter from Dublin's Coast Guard was tasked and airlifted the initial casualty to hospital.
It was revealed yesterday that the Coast Guard control centre at Bangor may have to close due to government cutbacks.
"It was sterling work by the fire service and also by the police helicopter. One of my colleagues was here at the initial rescue. The police helicopter actually went down to the water's edge and helped with the rescue. One person was hanging onto the skid of the helicopter which was quite heroic.
"They have to be commended for their sterling effort," said Mr McCann.
And he issued a stern warning: "Stay off the ice, any ice. Not only this lake but all."
Mr McCann said there must have been more than 100 members of the emergency services involved in the rescue, from ambulance personnel, fire service, Lough Neagh Rescue, the Coast Guard and the police.
Last week a man was rescued from the same lake after going into the water to save his dog. Two park wardens risked their lives and
crawled on their stomachs to reach the man who fell through the ice.
And the week before a dog died on Lurgan Park lake after falling through the ice.
Two fire service crew and a paramedic also ended up in the water during an attempt to save the victim.
A police helicopter was tasked to the Co Armagh park at around 2pm, beginning a dramatic two-hour rescue bid involving around 100 members of the emergency services.
Eyewitnesses said that a police officer balancing on the skid of the helicopter helped hoist the man onto the ice.
However, as the drama unfolded, two fire service crew and a paramedic ended up in the lake when the inflatable boat they were in capsized.
It is understood two of them swam to shore, however one was rescued by the fire service special rescue team.
The victim was airlifted to hospital by an Irish Coast Guard helicopter which was tasked from Dublin.
A PSNI spokesperson said: "Using the police helicopter officers managed to hoist the man from the water onto the ice.
"As other emergency services tried to reach him in a boat in treacherous conditions, two fire service personnel and a paramedic fell into the water.
"Two of the three swam ashore and one was rescued by the fire service special rescue team.
"The three were later taken to hospital."
The victim was brought to shore and attended to by paramedics and an off-duty doctor who had been in the area at the time.
He was transferred to hospital by Coast Guard helicopter.
Police superintendent Alister Robinson, Commander for E District, said: "I have nothing but praise and admiration for all the emergency service personnel who attended the scene. All of them risked their lives. It is a testament to the bravery, skill and selfessness and cooperation of all the agencies that were present."
The PSNI has appealed for witnesses. A spokesperson said it is understood there were a number of people in the area at the time.
Sean McCann, Station Officer with the local Coast Guard, said a helicopter from Dublin's Coast Guard was tasked and airlifted the initial casualty to hospital.
It was revealed yesterday that the Coast Guard control centre at Bangor may have to close due to government cutbacks.
"It was sterling work by the fire service and also by the police helicopter. One of my colleagues was here at the initial rescue. The police helicopter actually went down to the water's edge and helped with the rescue. One person was hanging onto the skid of the helicopter which was quite heroic.
"They have to be commended for their sterling effort," said Mr McCann.
And he issued a stern warning: "Stay off the ice, any ice. Not only this lake but all."
Mr McCann said there must have been more than 100 members of the emergency services involved in the rescue, from ambulance personnel, fire service, Lough Neagh Rescue, the Coast Guard and the police.
Last week a man was rescued from the same lake after going into the water to save his dog. Two park wardens risked their lives and
crawled on their stomachs to reach the man who fell through the ice.
And the week before a dog died on Lurgan Park lake after falling through the ice.
Another one. Fatalities: 1 dog, 1 human:
Man dies after falling through ice into lake (From Echo)
---
And another one: Fatalities: 1 dog, 0 humans.
Dogowner dives into freezing Eastbourne lake trying to save pet (From The Argus)
(Fire) Crew manager Justin Stoneham said: “We would ask any members of the public not to try and rescue their dogs from water but to phone the emergency services instead.
Last edited by FairWeatherFlyer; 20th Dec 2010 at 23:03. Reason: yet more news
Avoid imitations
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I agree about the limited use, and possible dangers, of a "self-service" rescue hoist.
Many survivors, as was the case in this instance, are unable to fit the rescue strop themselves.
This chap was unconscious.
Even when the survivor is conscious, in cold conditions the first thing to go is the use of the hands, second thing to cease functioning properly is the brain.
Even a simple strop may not be fitted properly, or at all, if a crew member isn't there to supervise.
Many survivors, as was the case in this instance, are unable to fit the rescue strop themselves.
This chap was unconscious.
Even when the survivor is conscious, in cold conditions the first thing to go is the use of the hands, second thing to cease functioning properly is the brain.
Even a simple strop may not be fitted properly, or at all, if a crew member isn't there to supervise.
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Still amazed that we allow the regulators to drive requirements to the point where we would rather over-regulate than provide the resources to save lives. Class D hoist is "a hoist for hire." If you are putting folks from a perfectly good aircraft onto ships, power lines, or windmills as part of a job, you are a hoist for hire. That's class D. You are on a daily basis putting lives on the hoist.
HEMS demand for hoist is typically more situational. It gets used less often, the attach points don't get stressed as often and it doesn't warrant the level of overdesign demanded by the class D requirements. I mean, less face it, places that don't require class D for SAR are not plagued by hoists falling off aircraft... but some bureaucrat sees that HEMS helicopter crews occassionally get paid and so they consider it "hoist for hire" and drive up the cost. I'm sure someone thinks they improved safety by imposing a higher level of equipment requirement, but when it robs the public of adequate resources to protect the public, it's no service.
I'm waiting for them to determine that ladders are too dangerous for saving people from fires. Either the fire company gets a cherry-picker or we let folks burn. Same thing.
HEMS demand for hoist is typically more situational. It gets used less often, the attach points don't get stressed as often and it doesn't warrant the level of overdesign demanded by the class D requirements. I mean, less face it, places that don't require class D for SAR are not plagued by hoists falling off aircraft... but some bureaucrat sees that HEMS helicopter crews occassionally get paid and so they consider it "hoist for hire" and drive up the cost. I'm sure someone thinks they improved safety by imposing a higher level of equipment requirement, but when it robs the public of adequate resources to protect the public, it's no service.
I'm waiting for them to determine that ladders are too dangerous for saving people from fires. Either the fire company gets a cherry-picker or we let folks burn. Same thing.
Overcontrolled,
Methinks you miss the point; there is only one standard for certification of hoists (or any other 'human external cargo' lifting equipment). Only the operation of the hoist has a variation in standards - for commercial air transport (CAT) that includes OEI performance.
For other than CAT, OEI performance is not required; this also applies to HEMS hoisting - by alleviation, and SAR - by definition (i.e. not CAT).
Jim
Methinks you miss the point; there is only one standard for certification of hoists (or any other 'human external cargo' lifting equipment). Only the operation of the hoist has a variation in standards - for commercial air transport (CAT) that includes OEI performance.
For other than CAT, OEI performance is not required; this also applies to HEMS hoisting - by alleviation, and SAR - by definition (i.e. not CAT).
Jim
If the unit is a dedicated SAR unit you do need to meet these requirements as required/appropriate.
To save someones life while using an aircraft you can do whatever it takes like the Canadian example. The regulators cannot take that away.
In most sane countries where life or limb is at stake you can throw the rule book out the window. Some people seem to be hung up on this one.
Just be aware you need to explain/justify your actions in writing afterwards. You would look pretty silly or possibly be prosecuted if a better option was available. In this case it was the best use of the resources available and within the experience of the crew at hand. More/previous experience in this case and a better understanding of the situation could have made a difference.
Even in the case quoted here which was unfortunately unsuccessful there may be explanations required if the applicable rules were not adhered to.
To save someones life while using an aircraft you can do whatever it takes like the Canadian example. The regulators cannot take that away.
In most sane countries where life or limb is at stake you can throw the rule book out the window. Some people seem to be hung up on this one.
Just be aware you need to explain/justify your actions in writing afterwards. You would look pretty silly or possibly be prosecuted if a better option was available. In this case it was the best use of the resources available and within the experience of the crew at hand. More/previous experience in this case and a better understanding of the situation could have made a difference.
Even in the case quoted here which was unfortunately unsuccessful there may be explanations required if the applicable rules were not adhered to.
