RAF SAR vs Air Ambulance
280 rescue sorties in 13 years (v) 4900 AA tasks in 9 years.
(2 a month (v) 3 a day)
(2 a month (v) 3 a day)
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Torque, what you do have to bear in mind, is that a lot of units are run by different organisations. Some units have a 'reputation' for, how can I put it diplomatically, looking after their own interests at the expense of other units. Also individual crews can have agendas as well. This can also happen in the military when people are trying to justify their existance. If you have problems with specific units, it might be nice not to tar us all with the same brush.......
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First / lasting impressions...
Unfortunately the whole corporate intent of an organisation can be spoilt by the actions of a very few 'non-aligned' individuals in this game as in any other. For example...
Some months ago there was a fairly large-scale emergency services event 'somewhere in England' that included attendance by police, fire service, ambulance service, coastguards etc etc plus the local SAR helo. The organisation meetings went quite well, except that the SAR rep (one of the aircrew from the local unit) was regarded by most attendees as being fairly unco-operative - actually, the rep was described as being a procreating posterior cavity, or words to that effect.
On the day, the air ambulance, police helo and police mounted section were all in attendance. The SAR helo arrived via a thundering low flypast and landed straight off a wingover. Once shut down the crew asked for the 'VIP tent' (!) and left for the cafe in a coastguard vehicle with no PR effort for all the assembled civvies at all other than referring to the police & air ambulance aircraft as 'toys'.
The organisers had arranged an RAF Falcons parachute drop, for which they had paid; it took some effort to convince the SAR crew that they would be unable to depart while the parachutes were in the air and that cancelling the drop (which had been clearly discussed in the meetings and NOTAM'd accordingly) was not viable. When they eventually departed - having significantly delayed the drop - the crew did so without any attempt to talk to their admiring public and, immediately after take-off, flew so low over the event that leaves fell from a nearby tree and many people reportedly ducked, thinking the aircraft had actually hit it. It made for some quite interesting photos!
No names, no pack drill, but very few emergency services professionals there were impressed and, sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if only 2 'toys' attend the next event...
The whole performance was a great shame because, for want of a bit of effort and thanks to an overdose of prima donna pills, SAR corporate Co-operation aims were set back quite significantly in this part of the world. Individuals all have their part to play, and trying to show off in front of others tends to be counterproductive.
E99
Some months ago there was a fairly large-scale emergency services event 'somewhere in England' that included attendance by police, fire service, ambulance service, coastguards etc etc plus the local SAR helo. The organisation meetings went quite well, except that the SAR rep (one of the aircrew from the local unit) was regarded by most attendees as being fairly unco-operative - actually, the rep was described as being a procreating posterior cavity, or words to that effect.
On the day, the air ambulance, police helo and police mounted section were all in attendance. The SAR helo arrived via a thundering low flypast and landed straight off a wingover. Once shut down the crew asked for the 'VIP tent' (!) and left for the cafe in a coastguard vehicle with no PR effort for all the assembled civvies at all other than referring to the police & air ambulance aircraft as 'toys'.
The organisers had arranged an RAF Falcons parachute drop, for which they had paid; it took some effort to convince the SAR crew that they would be unable to depart while the parachutes were in the air and that cancelling the drop (which had been clearly discussed in the meetings and NOTAM'd accordingly) was not viable. When they eventually departed - having significantly delayed the drop - the crew did so without any attempt to talk to their admiring public and, immediately after take-off, flew so low over the event that leaves fell from a nearby tree and many people reportedly ducked, thinking the aircraft had actually hit it. It made for some quite interesting photos!
No names, no pack drill, but very few emergency services professionals there were impressed and, sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if only 2 'toys' attend the next event...
The whole performance was a great shame because, for want of a bit of effort and thanks to an overdose of prima donna pills, SAR corporate Co-operation aims were set back quite significantly in this part of the world. Individuals all have their part to play, and trying to show off in front of others tends to be counterproductive.
E99
Jay,
Sincere apologies - I serioulsy didn't mean to tar everyone with one brush.
E99,
What appalling behaviour by the SAR people involved. I'm embarrassed to be associated with whoever that was - I wish they hadn't acted like that, and please believe me that not all (mil?) SARBoys are like that...but I realize the damage has been done...
RODF,
You won't fool anyone with maths like that! I think we all know that air amb units get many more calls than most SAR bases...a SAR unit might log almost as many hours though in a set period just because an average SAR shout takes longer than an average air amb shout (and that's not just because the King of the Sea and Queen of the Skies is so slow!).
TOTD
Sincere apologies - I serioulsy didn't mean to tar everyone with one brush.
E99,
What appalling behaviour by the SAR people involved. I'm embarrassed to be associated with whoever that was - I wish they hadn't acted like that, and please believe me that not all (mil?) SARBoys are like that...but I realize the damage has been done...
RODF,
You won't fool anyone with maths like that! I think we all know that air amb units get many more calls than most SAR bases...a SAR unit might log almost as many hours though in a set period just because an average SAR shout takes longer than an average air amb shout (and that's not just because the King of the Sea and Queen of the Skies is so slow!).
TOTD
Sorry RODF, I wasn't clear enough. The figures just showed what the (vs) meant to me. My jobs from my log book.
I will rearrange them to my shift average: RAFSAR; 1 job every 5 shifts. AA; 3 jobs every shift.
I will rearrange them to my shift average: RAFSAR; 1 job every 5 shifts. AA; 3 jobs every shift.
... they are hardly likely to get a lot of experienced SAR boys and girls ...
They do make a huge effort to spread the word ... ...and get involved ... with exercises organised by civilian emergency services.
Impressed.
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Why have the AA attend only to find they need to call out SAR, increasing the time it takes to get the patient to safety plus paying for two aircraft and two crew?
Because the AA is a first response vehicle for the Ambulance Sevice, and SAR is a specialist asset which can be kept up your sleeve for appropriate taskings.
Generally speaking the type of civvy taskings SAR usually get involved with will be remote locations or difficult access. Note that these two situations are not necessarily one and the same.
Quite often the AA will be first on scene, and will attend to the patient. IF the access is difficult, or the AA had to land some way off the patient giving a lengthy or difficult extraction by MRT, SAR may be requested to winch.
It's all a case of an appropriate response based on the information available at the time of call. No point calling SAR out for every job when 9 out of 10 of them wouldn't require their specialist skills.
FF
Because the AA is a first response vehicle for the Ambulance Sevice, and SAR is a specialist asset which can be kept up your sleeve for appropriate taskings.
Generally speaking the type of civvy taskings SAR usually get involved with will be remote locations or difficult access. Note that these two situations are not necessarily one and the same.
Quite often the AA will be first on scene, and will attend to the patient. IF the access is difficult, or the AA had to land some way off the patient giving a lengthy or difficult extraction by MRT, SAR may be requested to winch.
It's all a case of an appropriate response based on the information available at the time of call. No point calling SAR out for every job when 9 out of 10 of them wouldn't require their specialist skills.
FF
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Is there any reason why they don't have aircraft equipped for both HEMS+SAR?
Air ambulance helos in the UK are almost exclusively the smallest, and therefore cheapest, types that meet the CAA's requirements ie light twins such as the EC135 and MD902. The UK SAR philosophy, by comparison, is to use a larger, and therefore individually more expensive, machine that can be used for a multitude of scenarios including long range tasking.
Safe winching requires a significant amount of training, which would increase operating costs for AA units (the arguments surrounding this have been done to death previously on this forum!). Furthermore, hoist-equipped light twins may not be able to meet the single-engine performance required by the CAA to conduct winching ops.
Some operators overseas winch very successfully from light twins - REGA in Switzerland uses A109s, for example - but at present the UK AA and SAR philosophies don't really match up. That doesn't mean that AAs couldn't carry out winch ops in the future, but you specifically asked about SAR which is a rather wider requirement.
Louis
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Lets not forget either that most AA's are charity funded, with some struggling to meet the flying task with the money that comes in. As Louis discussess, the additonal engineering requirements, the more limtied flight envelope (C of G issues) and often shorter winch wires, the extra training and the risks associated with winching would add a considerable financial burden to any AA charitable organsation even if they were cleared by the CAA to do it. Its simply not worth the effort in most parts of the UK when there are perfectly competent SAR winch platforms at immediate readiness not far away. Lets not forget either that AAs are day only too.
It is a noteable however, that as AAs have proliferated in recent times, there has been tendency to send an AA first sometimes when the immediate tasking of a SAR cab would have been better. This of course comes down to what information comes from the accident scene and how the control room responds to the request. While it is also true that SAR cabs have been tasked to what would have been better done by a cheaper AA, from a casualty's perspective that error (from a time saving perspective) is better than having to wait while an arriving AA asseses that there is a need for a winch platfrom.
Much has been done in recent years to get good working relationships and coordination going..particularly at the tasking level...but there is still more to be done.
Cheers
It is a noteable however, that as AAs have proliferated in recent times, there has been tendency to send an AA first sometimes when the immediate tasking of a SAR cab would have been better. This of course comes down to what information comes from the accident scene and how the control room responds to the request. While it is also true that SAR cabs have been tasked to what would have been better done by a cheaper AA, from a casualty's perspective that error (from a time saving perspective) is better than having to wait while an arriving AA asseses that there is a need for a winch platfrom.
Much has been done in recent years to get good working relationships and coordination going..particularly at the tasking level...but there is still more to be done.
Cheers
Tallsars comment "but there is still more to be done" was bang-on; read the following article to see how things can (nearly) go pear-shaped if good decisions aren't made in good time. And very-well-done to the R169 crew who persevered under such difficult conditions.
Article from This is North Devon
Article from This is North Devon
Low fuel adds drama to helicopter's cliff rescue
Rescue watch is a weekly column about the work of North Devon's RNLI and RAF rescue teams. This week it's the Chivenor search and rescue team.
THE Chivenor helicopter has so far been called out 15 times this month, but despite being quiet in terms of the number of rescues, there have been some eventful and challenging ones.
Probably the stand out rescue came on November 10 when rescue 169 was called away from a training trip to a man who had fallen while climbing on a coastal cliff near Cardiff.
The crew, who were airborne on a training sortie, offered assistance to the coastguard after hearing of the incident on the radios.
A nearby air ambulance had been tasked by ambulance control and the coast guard stood Rescue 169 down.
The air ambulance arrived and managed to deploy their paramedic by hovering with one skid on the bottom of the cliff and the paramedic jumping out. He was unable to take all the necessary kit due to the treacherous location of the casualty and the risky technique used to get to the aid of the injured climber.
As Rescue 169 returned to training, they sought assurance on the radio that the evacuation of the climber was possible by the air ambulance.
Ten minutes later Rescue 169 was re-tasked as the casualty needed to be winched.
The casualty was at the base of 30ft cliffs, in a small rocky bay, with the advancing tide quickly approaching the casualty's position.
It wouldn't be long before the casualty's location was completely submerged.
The on scene paramedic had quickly assessed that the casualty had serious head injuries, a possible fractured pelvis and was drifting in and out of consciousness.
Rescue 169 arrived on scene, but due to the delayed call and the fact they had been conducting flying training, they were running very short of fuel.
The initial plan was to winch down the winchman/paramedic with the necessary kit, and while he was preparing the casualty to be winched, the aircraft would make a quick dash to St Athan Airfield in Cardiff for fuel before returning and completing the rescue. It soon became apparent that this would not be possible.
As the crew prepared to deploy the winchman, the incoming tide began lapping around the casualty and there was no time for fuel.
There was a simple choice to make, either go for fuel and let the man almost certainly drown or complete the rescue at the risk of running out of fuel before making it to an airfield.
With this in mind, the winchman worked as quickly as possible, stabilising the casualty and securing him in the stretcher. Twice his equipment was washed off the rock by large waves, with him and the casualty now soaking wet through as the waves were breaking over them.
With all the low fuel warnings sounding and lights flashing in the cockpit, the hook was deployed to recover the winchman and casualty, but there was not even enough time to recover them to the aircraft.
Instead they were hoisted, crane-like to the top of the cliff where the aircraft left them with the awaiting air ambulance and made a mad dash towards St Athan for fuel.
It was at this point that the crew knew they couldn't make it and had to land the aircraft in a field some eight miles short of the airfield with absolutely no spare fuel left.
The local farmer was very understanding of the crew's situation and provided plenty of tea while the crew waited for a fuel bowser from RAF Lyneham to come and save the day.
As this is the last Rescue Watch of the year from Chivenor, can we also take this opportunity to wish everyone a very merry Christmas and and best wishes for the New Year.
PS: Don't forget to wave to Santa Claus who often comes to fly with us on the days leading up to Christmas.
Seaweed
Rescue watch is a weekly column about the work of North Devon's RNLI and RAF rescue teams. This week it's the Chivenor search and rescue team.
THE Chivenor helicopter has so far been called out 15 times this month, but despite being quiet in terms of the number of rescues, there have been some eventful and challenging ones.
Probably the stand out rescue came on November 10 when rescue 169 was called away from a training trip to a man who had fallen while climbing on a coastal cliff near Cardiff.
The crew, who were airborne on a training sortie, offered assistance to the coastguard after hearing of the incident on the radios.
A nearby air ambulance had been tasked by ambulance control and the coast guard stood Rescue 169 down.
The air ambulance arrived and managed to deploy their paramedic by hovering with one skid on the bottom of the cliff and the paramedic jumping out. He was unable to take all the necessary kit due to the treacherous location of the casualty and the risky technique used to get to the aid of the injured climber.
As Rescue 169 returned to training, they sought assurance on the radio that the evacuation of the climber was possible by the air ambulance.
Ten minutes later Rescue 169 was re-tasked as the casualty needed to be winched.
The casualty was at the base of 30ft cliffs, in a small rocky bay, with the advancing tide quickly approaching the casualty's position.
It wouldn't be long before the casualty's location was completely submerged.
The on scene paramedic had quickly assessed that the casualty had serious head injuries, a possible fractured pelvis and was drifting in and out of consciousness.
Rescue 169 arrived on scene, but due to the delayed call and the fact they had been conducting flying training, they were running very short of fuel.
The initial plan was to winch down the winchman/paramedic with the necessary kit, and while he was preparing the casualty to be winched, the aircraft would make a quick dash to St Athan Airfield in Cardiff for fuel before returning and completing the rescue. It soon became apparent that this would not be possible.
As the crew prepared to deploy the winchman, the incoming tide began lapping around the casualty and there was no time for fuel.
There was a simple choice to make, either go for fuel and let the man almost certainly drown or complete the rescue at the risk of running out of fuel before making it to an airfield.
With this in mind, the winchman worked as quickly as possible, stabilising the casualty and securing him in the stretcher. Twice his equipment was washed off the rock by large waves, with him and the casualty now soaking wet through as the waves were breaking over them.
With all the low fuel warnings sounding and lights flashing in the cockpit, the hook was deployed to recover the winchman and casualty, but there was not even enough time to recover them to the aircraft.
Instead they were hoisted, crane-like to the top of the cliff where the aircraft left them with the awaiting air ambulance and made a mad dash towards St Athan for fuel.
It was at this point that the crew knew they couldn't make it and had to land the aircraft in a field some eight miles short of the airfield with absolutely no spare fuel left.
The local farmer was very understanding of the crew's situation and provided plenty of tea while the crew waited for a fuel bowser from RAF Lyneham to come and save the day.
As this is the last Rescue Watch of the year from Chivenor, can we also take this opportunity to wish everyone a very merry Christmas and and best wishes for the New Year.
PS: Don't forget to wave to Santa Claus who often comes to fly with us on the days leading up to Christmas.
Seaweed
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Is there a V's?
Jusy got back from lying down in a dark room for a couple of hours as I found myself agreeing with CRABS sensible and informed comments! (no offence meant!).
Is there REALLY a V's? I think not. The two operations are totally different beasts, with different deployment criteria and operation. Or, as they say, 'Horses for courses'
Down here in God's own county, we have, I think, a good working relationship with the SAR boys. On tasking, if the information (and that's the crux of any deployment) is that it's a difficult or remote location, then our HEMS dispatcher will pre-notify ARCC of the possibility that SAR may be needed for winching. Sometimes, on arrival at scene, things are not what we were expecting. So my guys give the treatment and I get control to acquire other assets. No problem.
The thing is that if an Ambulance service has AA's at it's disposal, they will be used as the first response. The problem, as already stated, is one of EDUCATION! What resource can do what, where and how long will it take.
Deep respect for the SAR boys and what they do
long may they continue.
Oh! Before I forget............
TOTD - 'Helicopter heros', it ain't real life mate! I would be embarressed to be seen doing some of the things they've shown in the series! As for the 2 hour carry...........It's very difficult to call in other agencies and be seen 'to fail' when you've got a camera crew egging you on to do a 2 hour carry 'cos it good TV! (IMHO)
Is there REALLY a V's? I think not. The two operations are totally different beasts, with different deployment criteria and operation. Or, as they say, 'Horses for courses'
Down here in God's own county, we have, I think, a good working relationship with the SAR boys. On tasking, if the information (and that's the crux of any deployment) is that it's a difficult or remote location, then our HEMS dispatcher will pre-notify ARCC of the possibility that SAR may be needed for winching. Sometimes, on arrival at scene, things are not what we were expecting. So my guys give the treatment and I get control to acquire other assets. No problem.
The thing is that if an Ambulance service has AA's at it's disposal, they will be used as the first response. The problem, as already stated, is one of EDUCATION! What resource can do what, where and how long will it take.
Deep respect for the SAR boys and what they do
long may they continue.Oh! Before I forget............
TOTD - 'Helicopter heros', it ain't real life mate! I would be embarressed to be seen doing some of the things they've shown in the series! As for the 2 hour carry...........It's very difficult to call in other agencies and be seen 'to fail' when you've got a camera crew egging you on to do a 2 hour carry 'cos it good TV! (IMHO)
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It's very difficult to call in other agencies and be seen 'to fail' when you've got a camera crew egging you on to do a 2 hour carry 'cos it good TV! (IMHO)
Bobby, Bobby. If you had watched the series you would have seen many occasions when SAR have been called in to winch. As for a two-hour carry, well it must been MRT because I have yet to meet the paramedic who would want to carry a single pound an inch further than absolutely necessary!
As for the"good tv" comment, if you really think that, you need a good slap as that shows a massive disrespect to your fellow professionals. So, here, have one back
Not real life? Jets crashing on Emmerdale village, a tram leaping from Coronation St. viaduct right through Rita'a Kabin window, every new resident of that street being either a psychopath or mass murderer, Nigel from Eastenders getting a job as a surgeon in Holby...that's not real life, matey!
Twisted ankles up on the dales, old people falling over and breaking their hip, crews needing help due to access problems, HEMS crews helping out on non-life threatening jobs because they have stronger painkillers than the land crews, hospital transfers...and every now and then a jet-car crash to relieve the tedium.
Unless Devon is such a dangerous place that you only get called to weapons-grade HEMS tasking, I suspect you too will have to attend "embarrassing" incidents just like the rest of us.
That, my friend is real life.
FF
Bobby, Bobby. If you had watched the series you would have seen many occasions when SAR have been called in to winch. As for a two-hour carry, well it must been MRT because I have yet to meet the paramedic who would want to carry a single pound an inch further than absolutely necessary!
As for the"good tv" comment, if you really think that, you need a good slap as that shows a massive disrespect to your fellow professionals. So, here, have one back
Not real life? Jets crashing on Emmerdale village, a tram leaping from Coronation St. viaduct right through Rita'a Kabin window, every new resident of that street being either a psychopath or mass murderer, Nigel from Eastenders getting a job as a surgeon in Holby...that's not real life, matey!
Twisted ankles up on the dales, old people falling over and breaking their hip, crews needing help due to access problems, HEMS crews helping out on non-life threatening jobs because they have stronger painkillers than the land crews, hospital transfers...and every now and then a jet-car crash to relieve the tedium.
Unless Devon is such a dangerous place that you only get called to weapons-grade HEMS tasking, I suspect you too will have to attend "embarrassing" incidents just like the rest of us.
That, my friend is real life.
FF
Last edited by Flaxton Flyer; 5th Dec 2010 at 08:37. Reason: to add a bit more rant!
