AvGas Rotors Running Fuelling
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Whether or not its been done safely for years in other countries, in the UK if you refer to CAP 748 - Aircraft Fuelling and Fuel Installation Management it states:
If I was the aerodrome licencee/owner I would have jumped all over that crew.
Biz
3.2 The fuelling of helicopters with engines or rotors running should be prohibited when
fuelling with:
a) gasoline or with wide-cut turbine fuels not containing an antistatic additive; or
b) kerosene or wide-cut turbine fuels containing an antistatic additive if the fuel inlet
is positioned so that the exhaust system is at the same height or lower, or if it is
on the same side of the helicopter.
fuelling with:
a) gasoline or with wide-cut turbine fuels not containing an antistatic additive; or
b) kerosene or wide-cut turbine fuels containing an antistatic additive if the fuel inlet
is positioned so that the exhaust system is at the same height or lower, or if it is
on the same side of the helicopter.
Biz
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This is fine for a flight school or military operation . But a small operator would be "so safe " shutting down every refuel it would cause him to fold . Its different when you actually have to be profitable and not gouging students or on the tax dole . 
Well in this case it didn't burn to the ground but it was pretty close. Before I go on I must say that things were differant in NZ then and everything, everywere was a bit carefree in the 70's.
I will never forget when one of our pilots was self refueling, on a farm site, in a 300C with the engine running. His loader was on the way in the Holden so he was by himself. We had a small tank trailer that went from site to site towed by the ute.
It had a hand pump and a long hose so that it was well away from the helicopter.
My pal took the hose out to the helicopter and jammed the valve open with the tank cap then went back to the tanker to begin pumping. Unfortuneatly the tank wasn't as empty as he thought and it overflowed quickly filling the drip pan and spilling onto the exhaust. The reaction back at the tanker was to rip the hose away from the helicopter this was accomplished but unfortunately the cap flew away with the filler. Meanwhile the fire heated up the drip pan and the tank, expanding the fuel inside which helped to feed the fire. The first task was to plug the flow but precioius seconds were wasted trying to locate the tank cap in the surrounding grass. Once recovered our pilot, whose helicopter was his livelihood, bravely dashed into the flames and after a little toasting stopped the flow. Then the small extinguisher in the helicopter was used to put out the fire.
It was quite a save, resulting in a sagging panel on the right rear side of the canopy and general sooting around the tank and support. The helicopter was flown back to Hamilton and after a new plastic panel installed, went back to work.
Good lessen and something you would only do once... hopefully never.
I will never forget when one of our pilots was self refueling, on a farm site, in a 300C with the engine running. His loader was on the way in the Holden so he was by himself. We had a small tank trailer that went from site to site towed by the ute.
It had a hand pump and a long hose so that it was well away from the helicopter.
My pal took the hose out to the helicopter and jammed the valve open with the tank cap then went back to the tanker to begin pumping. Unfortuneatly the tank wasn't as empty as he thought and it overflowed quickly filling the drip pan and spilling onto the exhaust. The reaction back at the tanker was to rip the hose away from the helicopter this was accomplished but unfortunately the cap flew away with the filler. Meanwhile the fire heated up the drip pan and the tank, expanding the fuel inside which helped to feed the fire. The first task was to plug the flow but precioius seconds were wasted trying to locate the tank cap in the surrounding grass. Once recovered our pilot, whose helicopter was his livelihood, bravely dashed into the flames and after a little toasting stopped the flow. Then the small extinguisher in the helicopter was used to put out the fire.
It was quite a save, resulting in a sagging panel on the right rear side of the canopy and general sooting around the tank and support. The helicopter was flown back to Hamilton and after a new plastic panel installed, went back to work.
Good lessen and something you would only do once... hopefully never.
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Hot refueling is no probs, as long as your CAA law allows it. Looking at the recommendation from the UK, I would say they would not want you to do it with a Jet Ranger, as it could be argued that the exhaust is on the same 'side' as the refueling point... Stupid but...
While avgas may not come in jerry's nothing stopping you from putting it into them for your job. Same as jeta1 can be transferred, and I have transferred thousands of litres from bowser to Jerry into machine in my time. Throw a can or two of gas into the machine every load or 3 or 4 to keep the load at max and fuel low to increase productivity and$$$$$ up. Hard for people who haven't been paid by the acre/hectare/kg/lb/ton/load etc to understand that sometimes you need to keep fuel to a minimum.
While avgas may not come in jerry's nothing stopping you from putting it into them for your job. Same as jeta1 can be transferred, and I have transferred thousands of litres from bowser to Jerry into machine in my time. Throw a can or two of gas into the machine every load or 3 or 4 to keep the load at max and fuel low to increase productivity and$$$$$ up. Hard for people who haven't been paid by the acre/hectare/kg/lb/ton/load etc to understand that sometimes you need to keep fuel to a minimum.
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Standard practice on Tuna boat Ops. Not saying I particularly enjoyed the procedure but never had any issues. There have been a lot of disasters out there in the Pacific but never heard of one related to hot fueling.
Can often look like a 300 is being hot refueled from a distance as the blades can take ages to stop. I can quite happily run the engine down, turn off,put 70 litres in and then restart engine without blades stopping
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Yes 300s and 47s avgas is what I meant , the 1500 euro guy said all machines with blades turning . I gave the turbines as an example with less issues .
Well like I said, these are the rules in The Netherlands. If it is applicable in other countries, I don't know. I'm also wondering if this is applicable for turbine helo's in The Netherlands.........
The FAA have just issued a safety alert for operators (SAFO) about hot refueling/loading following this accident:
The document can be found here:
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../SAFO10020.pdf
It appears to mirror European policy (JAR-OPS and EASA OPS) on hot fuelling with volatile fuel; as this is addressed in ICAO Annex 6, it is somewhat surprising that the FAA have only just felt compelled to issue a safety notice (not exactly proactive).
The reference (in the document) to FAR 91.9 is bizarre; it appears to limit hot refuelling only when there is a limitation in the Flight Manual. How many Flight Manuals have you ever seen that contain such a limitation. Once again, this is the FAA attempting to regulate operations from within a certification code!
Jim
Background: On May 30, 2009, a Bell 47G-2 helicopter operating under part 137 was being refueled with the engine running (hot fueling) when the ground crew spilled fuel onto the engine while trying to untangle a kink in the hose. The helicopter quickly caught fire and the pilot sustained serious injuries as a result.
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../SAFO10020.pdf
It appears to mirror European policy (JAR-OPS and EASA OPS) on hot fuelling with volatile fuel; as this is addressed in ICAO Annex 6, it is somewhat surprising that the FAA have only just felt compelled to issue a safety notice (not exactly proactive).
The reference (in the document) to FAR 91.9 is bizarre; it appears to limit hot refuelling only when there is a limitation in the Flight Manual. How many Flight Manuals have you ever seen that contain such a limitation. Once again, this is the FAA attempting to regulate operations from within a certification code!
Jim
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Hot refueling, is there another way to refuel on the job? I've hot refueled a Robbie for 20 000hrs plus and only once had a fire. The engine earth straps were broken and I can only assume a spark on the earthing side ignited the overflowing fuel. Noticed flames on the ground so had a peek in the hatch under aux fuel and it was like a stream trains firebox, quickly shut hatch and then used extingusher to put out fire.Other then flying with no instruments the scariest part was after take off all the extingusher powder blew back thru the console at about 100ft and 50kts, almost scared the poop out of me.
I wonder can anyone tell me why the engine runs rough when you overflow the aux tank. Is it fuel entering the air inlet and flooding engine or is it fuel shorting mags out.
Real interested in Imabells or Topendtorques ideas, obviously after they get the rightchessness out of the way
I wonder can anyone tell me why the engine runs rough when you overflow the aux tank. Is it fuel entering the air inlet and flooding engine or is it fuel shorting mags out.
Real interested in Imabells or Topendtorques ideas, obviously after they get the rightchessness out of the way
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Rubberband I believe the rough running is caused by the fuel rich air from where the aux has overflowed changing the mixture momentarily. I have seen something similar happen in the opposite sense using a grader up close to a fire front putting in a break when the engine started running rough because the oxygen in the local parcel of air was getting consumed by the fire and changing the mixture.
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Noticed flames on the ground so had a peek in the hatch under aux fuel and it was like a stream trains firebox, quickly shut hatch and then used extingusher to put out fire.Other then flying with no instruments the scariest part was after take off
My mind is well and truly boggled.
Re the Jetranger point, the filler is almost 2 metres below the exhaust so no significant hazard. On the Gazelle RR refuelling is a complete no-no due to the proximity of the filler to the intake.
It would seem that both paras above are amply covered by that increasingly rare commodity previously known as "Common Sense".
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Agaricus, sometimes commonsense should prevail, but job pressure sometimes overrides. At the time I'd just spent close to 11 hours stacking up a couple thousand head of cattle and theres only 15 more minutes before they are in the holding paddock, its 30 minutes back to camp and about an hour left of daylight, and I'm in the middle of woop woop. Mags checked fine, if you can't tell what the rotor speed should sound like with 20 000 hours then maybe you may not be on, or even near the ball, the machine was well maintained so everything had been working up until then, except the broken earth straps obviously.
Today I'd kick any young fellas bumpart if he even thought of doing what I did. And in hindsight I'd kick my own.
Today I'd kick any young fellas bumpart if he even thought of doing what I did. And in hindsight I'd kick my own.
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Agaricus, i agree that commonsence says no problem refueling a JR "hot", however it would only take a very smart, "overpaid" lawyer, with some self appointed "experts" to take someone to task. And I was simply repeating what the CAP said. It simply states, or if it is on the same side of the helicopter...
From my experience with lawyers and CAA, commonsence has nothing to do with it, it comes down to how they can twist what is a perfectly reasonable sounding recomendation to have a go at someone they don't like...
re the 22 flying after a fire, not sure i'd do it, but the most mustering i'v done is a couple of hundred head of cattle in the Arawhata, down south westland, other than trying to put the odd animal back into a paddock that i just scared them out of.
Have a couple of good pictures of hot refuelling 47's from jerrys, smoke hanging out of mouth, pump pouring chemical at the same time, blades/stab bar a couple of inches from the hand...
during the 70's, so we have increased our risk analysis since then....
From my experience with lawyers and CAA, commonsence has nothing to do with it, it comes down to how they can twist what is a perfectly reasonable sounding recomendation to have a go at someone they don't like...
re the 22 flying after a fire, not sure i'd do it, but the most mustering i'v done is a couple of hundred head of cattle in the Arawhata, down south westland, other than trying to put the odd animal back into a paddock that i just scared them out of.
Have a couple of good pictures of hot refuelling 47's from jerrys, smoke hanging out of mouth, pump pouring chemical at the same time, blades/stab bar a couple of inches from the hand...
during the 70's, so we have increased our risk analysis since then....
