IR approaches into private sites? (UK)
Avoid imitations
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Crab, so presumably Cardiff Radar would also pick up the other aircraft and provide you with information / separation iaw the service you normally request, especially if the other aircraft was using a transponder.
Is your Seaking TCAS equipped, btw? Many modern IFR helicopters are; I'm not sure if the MOD have got around to bringing yours up to date yet like they have seen fit to do with other RAF types. If not, I would think there would be a good case to do so, even in these cash-strapped days.
Seems to me you are presuming that pilots here carry out their own business in IMC "blind", i.e. with no rt contact and no radar service. I certainly wouldn't if a service was available; I don't think that anyone else with common sense would.
Having said that, I did once see a mode 'A' only R-44 (as an unstabilised single, presumably non-IFR equipped and certainly not allowed to fly IFR in UK) who passed only just beneath me in solid cloud under the London TMA a few years back. We were in receipt of a radar information service at the time, he was certainly not on the local radar unit's frequency. The cloudbase was about 1200' and we were at 2400', so he certainly wasn't scud running!
Is your Seaking TCAS equipped, btw? Many modern IFR helicopters are; I'm not sure if the MOD have got around to bringing yours up to date yet like they have seen fit to do with other RAF types. If not, I would think there would be a good case to do so, even in these cash-strapped days.
Seems to me you are presuming that pilots here carry out their own business in IMC "blind", i.e. with no rt contact and no radar service. I certainly wouldn't if a service was available; I don't think that anyone else with common sense would.
Having said that, I did once see a mode 'A' only R-44 (as an unstabilised single, presumably non-IFR equipped and certainly not allowed to fly IFR in UK) who passed only just beneath me in solid cloud under the London TMA a few years back. We were in receipt of a radar information service at the time, he was certainly not on the local radar unit's frequency. The cloudbase was about 1200' and we were at 2400', so he certainly wasn't scud running!
No not TCAS equipped but I don't believe many mil aircraft are. Cardiff's radar service is limited in our area however and below top of drop is not much protection.
I wouldn't operate IMC with no radar and RT either unless I really have to (not much radar coverage in the wee small hours on a job inland away from major airports).
Operating in the cruise IMC and flying quadrantals to ensure separation is not the same as descending IMC to cloudbreak/land with no radar or RT (or worse, pretending you are VMC so ATC don't panic).
I wouldn't operate IMC with no radar and RT either unless I really have to (not much radar coverage in the wee small hours on a job inland away from major airports).
Operating in the cruise IMC and flying quadrantals to ensure separation is not the same as descending IMC to cloudbreak/land with no radar or RT (or worse, pretending you are VMC so ATC don't panic).
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I agree but a grey area (pun unintended) exists at the low altitudes we rotary folk are often required to operate at.
A lot of light aircraft and rotary wing (albeit away from your area, over lower terrain and under the London TMA, for example) are often obliged to fly in IMC, but do not fly high enough to use quadrantals, nor are they able to climb higher.
You and your colleagues should push hard for TCAS; you might be surprised how useful (and interesting!) it can be. Even the police aircraft are now widely so equipped. I mention that because I know as an ex-police pilot (and ex-SAR boy too), they are always very much budget constrained but saw it as a priority and did obtain it some years ago. I've operated for over a decade with it and wouldn't like to go back to flying without it, especially when under IFR in these days of decreasing LARS cover.
A lot of light aircraft and rotary wing (albeit away from your area, over lower terrain and under the London TMA, for example) are often obliged to fly in IMC, but do not fly high enough to use quadrantals, nor are they able to climb higher.
You and your colleagues should push hard for TCAS; you might be surprised how useful (and interesting!) it can be. Even the police aircraft are now widely so equipped. I mention that because I know as an ex-police pilot (and ex-SAR boy too), they are always very much budget constrained but saw it as a priority and did obtain it some years ago. I've operated for over a decade with it and wouldn't like to go back to flying without it, especially when under IFR in these days of decreasing LARS cover.
they are always very much budget constrained but saw it as a priority and did obtain it some years ago.
A lot of light aircraft and rotary wing (albeit away from your area, over lower terrain and under the London TMA, for example) are often obliged to fly in IMC, but do not fly high enough to use quadrantals, nor are they able to climb higher.
The One Your Mother Warned You About
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Crab;
Go fly the ILS into Oxford one grotty weekend and see how many TCAS contacts there are between ToD and DA, very few talking to Brize LARS and even less talking to Oxford. I filed on one there a while ago, he flew from a neighbouring airfield and ran a business at Oxford, his attitude was "I was in the open FIR, why should I talk to anyone?" he was aware of the ILS, but too selfish to care.
I honestly think a lot of these guys are bimbling around busy airspace IMC following GPS moving maps and have never noticed the approach symbol on the CAA charts, if they even carry them. The airspace between Manchester and the south coast is incredibly busy compared to your patch with, GA at all altitudes below controlled airspace and from what my TCAS and radar services tell me quite happy to fly around IMC without talking to a soul.
SND
Go fly the ILS into Oxford one grotty weekend and see how many TCAS contacts there are between ToD and DA, very few talking to Brize LARS and even less talking to Oxford. I filed on one there a while ago, he flew from a neighbouring airfield and ran a business at Oxford, his attitude was "I was in the open FIR, why should I talk to anyone?" he was aware of the ILS, but too selfish to care.
I honestly think a lot of these guys are bimbling around busy airspace IMC following GPS moving maps and have never noticed the approach symbol on the CAA charts, if they even carry them. The airspace between Manchester and the south coast is incredibly busy compared to your patch with, GA at all altitudes below controlled airspace and from what my TCAS and radar services tell me quite happy to fly around IMC without talking to a soul.
SND
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and presumably are therefore in receipt of a radar service and would only let down using a proper published procedure. If not, what the f*** are they doing?
You would have to ask the individual pilots why some don't obtain a service if that's what they do, especially now that Farnborough LARS has thankfully been increased in capability. For years before there was no cover available north of LHR.
However, obviously there is sometimes no need to carry out an IMC letdown if suitable VMC weather exists at their destination.
FiFB, Yes, that area around Kidlington is a difficult one to safely transit, with Oxford IFR departures not always speaking to Brize Radar.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Doesn't this discussion reinforce the fact that given the number of non-TCAS equipped aircraft there are out there, even if you don't create your very own smoking hole at the bottom of some GPS cowboy inspired game of blind-man's bluff, your chances of hitting some other daft sod on the way to the inquest are also quite high?
Are there any stats available for IMC mid-air collisions? I've never heard of a single one, but know of many VMC mid-airs, especially around airports. On that basis, I think I'm going to fly everywhere I can IMC
JJ
JJ
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JJ, Yes, there is strange logic in doing so! IFR aircraft are mandated to have a transponder. VFR aircraft probably won't go IFR, they might even stay grounded if the weather is remotely poor.
Use TCAS, get a LARS service and avoid the madding crowds, especially if you can get above overcast cloud. Just beware below 3,000 feet for the bloke coming the other way in cloud at the same altitude, without his transponder on, not talking, no LARS....
Use TCAS, get a LARS service and avoid the madding crowds, especially if you can get above overcast cloud. Just beware below 3,000 feet for the bloke coming the other way in cloud at the same altitude, without his transponder on, not talking, no LARS....
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I have heard that these types of approach can be done with the aid of an iPhone 4. Perhaps all pilots at Patriot Redhill should be issued with them so that they can fly with a bit more confidence. Normally allows safe IFR down to the ground. Alternatively, 20 years + experience and a training in the forces ...
even if you don't create your very own smoking hole at the bottom of some GPS cowboy inspired game of blind-man's bluff, your chances of hitting some other daft sod on the way to the inquest are also quite high?
Can't afford an iPhone4. I have my fleet of luxury cars and my mansion to sell now. 
My bloody point exactly! I can't afford any.
Anyway, 280hr pilot, 16hrs advanced hovering R22 experience, GPS savvy, PPL, seeks lucrative job. Will work for beer!
Anyway, 280hr pilot, 16hrs advanced hovering R22 experience, GPS savvy, PPL, seeks lucrative job. Will work for beer!
Last edited by helimutt; 23rd Aug 2010 at 08:09.
I'm off with my CV then. Cheers for the heads-up.
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Returning to the thread topic, I wonder just what the facts are ref accidents on IFR let downs to private sites - that were attributable to the approach not being an approved precision/non precision approach but a GPS one?
Seems to me the Irish S76 accident was really not the fault of a GPS approach - it was more about pilots simply not performing the approach they intended, accurately. Similar to just getting too low on an ILS and hitting the ground, for example. Interestingly this S76 accident throws up a hazard of two crew ops - here both rather assumed the other knew what he was doing without enough questioning.
Moving on to the other UK accident mentioned, with owner Philip Carter near Peterborough in an AS355F2, this was again not a consequence of hitting the ground from inaccurate GPS position or hitting unforseen obstacles. It was either from excessive descent in IMC to no limit or within 100ft or so AGL, or more likely I suspect descent to too poor VMC night conditions and then loss of control effectively through then entering IMC at low level and speed whilst transiting the mile to the destination.
So, what examples in the UK have there been of accidents into private sites as a direct consequence of an unapproved IFR let downs?
Seems to me the Irish S76 accident was really not the fault of a GPS approach - it was more about pilots simply not performing the approach they intended, accurately. Similar to just getting too low on an ILS and hitting the ground, for example. Interestingly this S76 accident throws up a hazard of two crew ops - here both rather assumed the other knew what he was doing without enough questioning.
Moving on to the other UK accident mentioned, with owner Philip Carter near Peterborough in an AS355F2, this was again not a consequence of hitting the ground from inaccurate GPS position or hitting unforseen obstacles. It was either from excessive descent in IMC to no limit or within 100ft or so AGL, or more likely I suspect descent to too poor VMC night conditions and then loss of control effectively through then entering IMC at low level and speed whilst transiting the mile to the destination.
So, what examples in the UK have there been of accidents into private sites as a direct consequence of an unapproved IFR let downs?