Another scam: selling a deregistered UK R44
Thread Starter
Another scam: selling a deregistered UK R44
A friend here in Australia was interested in an advert running for a Lowestoft based R44 Raven II, G-CERS. Nice specs, but mismatched photos and a reluctance to impart information. They even use the name and address of the last owner, which must be causing him some distress.
After a lot of help from other Rotorheads, it transpires that this is a scam to get a 10% deposit before inspection. Biggles99 sold the aircraft last year and it is re-registered in Switzerland, but he has heard of at least one other person interested in the R44 who balked at paying a pre-purchase deposit. The scam also appears to be controlled from.... (wait for it).... Nigeria
After a lot of help from other Rotorheads, it transpires that this is a scam to get a 10% deposit before inspection. Biggles99 sold the aircraft last year and it is re-registered in Switzerland, but he has heard of at least one other person interested in the R44 who balked at paying a pre-purchase deposit. The scam also appears to be controlled from.... (wait for it).... Nigeria
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: N42° 20' 43" W71° 04' 45"
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's likely they don't even have access to the ship.
The scammers pick high value items like aircraft and high-end cars, then re-advertise them, often with different photo's as you've noticed.
Unwitting buyers are duped into thinking it's a genuine advertisement and are conned into paying the fee to the "seller" - the aircraft may not even be for sale by it's real owner.
Clever really. And many many people fall for it..
The scammers pick high value items like aircraft and high-end cars, then re-advertise them, often with different photo's as you've noticed.
Unwitting buyers are duped into thinking it's a genuine advertisement and are conned into paying the fee to the "seller" - the aircraft may not even be for sale by it's real owner.
Clever really. And many many people fall for it..
There was a similar thing going on last year with a Dauphin that the owner found out was being offered for sale when he spotted it on the internet.
A search for the supposed seller's phone number in Google revealed several other high value items that were also not for sale.
A search for the supposed seller's phone number in Google revealed several other high value items that were also not for sale.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 53
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
scam
I know of one guy who was offered a Raven II (2008) with only 70 hours for 160.000 €. They even copied the homepage of the former owner. And yes, that very cheap Dauphin is also still around.
A bit of digging reveals quite a few scam R44s supposedly for sale in the UK.
Some key points to look for,
No external photos.
Foreign Reg aircraft in strange places.
Check where it is supposed to be kept really exists.
P*ss poor use of English in the replies you get to emails (worse than mine).
Google the Postcode for the seller and see if it matches their address.
Check G-INFO or the Faa N registry (or local registry of choice) and see if it has been de registered or even exists.
Google the Reg and see if its got any crash history.
Gary
Some key points to look for,
No external photos.
Foreign Reg aircraft in strange places.
Check where it is supposed to be kept really exists.
P*ss poor use of English in the replies you get to emails (worse than mine).
Google the Postcode for the seller and see if it matches their address.
Check G-INFO or the Faa N registry (or local registry of choice) and see if it has been de registered or even exists.
Google the Reg and see if its got any crash history.
Gary
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South of the North Pole
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John
One wrong assumption there. I grant you it was cancelled from the UK register as going to Switzerland last November, but it's never been registered there in the 5+ months since.....
ppheli
sold the aircraft last year and it is re-registered in Switzerland
ppheli
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ppheli
One wrong assumption there. I grant you it was cancelled from the UK register as going to Switzerland last November, but it's never been registered there in the 5+ months since
There's only so much I can do from Australia
Nonetheless, the search for an R44 is turning into a bit of an interesting exercise. We've identified a few shown on MyPlane.com as being 'dodgy': I'm particularly intrigued with this one:
2007 R44 Raven II (United Kingdom) $680,000.00 12/9/2009 Lightly used Police helicopter in perfect condition and well equipped
When did anyone have a Police R44 in UK
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: england
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dodgy ads
CERS is definitely in Switzerland, safe and sound and much loved by its new owner.
There are a lot of scam ads around, and there are even some scam helicopter sales organisations as well -- one Spanish client got conned out of 5,000 euros by a company called Alma purporting to be based in Plumpton.
They are currently advertising another non-existant helicopter - a lovely blue Clipper that Patriot sold to Germany last year.
In addition to Veeany's good advice, don't be afraid to do exactly what John Eacott did: contact someone you know is not a fraud and ask them for any background information on the seller or the sales organisation.
I know most, if not all, of the sales organisations in the UK, and I also know a lot of the R44s and R22s which are on the market, so if you want to check the validity of an advert then I'd happily help you out.
Big Ls
There are a lot of scam ads around, and there are even some scam helicopter sales organisations as well -- one Spanish client got conned out of 5,000 euros by a company called Alma purporting to be based in Plumpton.
They are currently advertising another non-existant helicopter - a lovely blue Clipper that Patriot sold to Germany last year.
In addition to Veeany's good advice, don't be afraid to do exactly what John Eacott did: contact someone you know is not a fraud and ask them for any background information on the seller or the sales organisation.
I know most, if not all, of the sales organisations in the UK, and I also know a lot of the R44s and R22s which are on the market, so if you want to check the validity of an advert then I'd happily help you out.
Big Ls
Last edited by biggles99; 28th Apr 2010 at 08:09.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2007 R44 Raven II (United Kingdom) $680,000.00 12/9/2009 Lightly used Police helicopter in perfect condition and well equipped
When did anyone have a Police R44 in UK
When did anyone have a Police R44 in UK
Simple answer, it's probably been imported from another Country? Or it might still be in another Country!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That could possibly be the police equipped R44 on the UK Reg G-POLI !
Was it only a demonstrator or was it actually used on active duty I wonder?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: By a river
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For anyone involved in the acquisition of any aircraft:
1. Ensure that the entire procedure is handled by a bonded, third party escrow
service. These companies handle the deposits and the purchase funds
according to the terms set out in your LOIs and purchase agreements.
2. Ensure in your LOI that the deposit is fully refundable based upon
satisfactory inspection of the aircraft. Your deposit in (reputable) escrow
cannot be accessed by any other party until you say so, ie; once the
inspection has been completed and you notify the seller that you will
accept the aircraft.
3. Once the aircraft has been inspected and accepted by the buyer, the buyer
notifies the escrow house, who notifies the seller.
4. Once all parties are happy with the inspection results, all can proceed to
the purchase agreement. The escrow house will ensure that the buyer and
seller are ready to proceed per the terms of that Purchase Agreement. They
will ask the seller for the Bill of Sale made out to the buyer and ask the
buyer to deposit the balance of the purchase funds.
5. On acceptance by both parties to proceed with the purchase, the escrow
house will ensure that the Bill of Sale and purchase funds change hands at
the same time. The escrow house will also have de-registered the aircraft
from the seller and readied it for registration to the buyer.
They will also have ensured that there are no liens or encumbrances
against the aircraft.
This is a very simplified precis of the steps involved but handling it this way ensures that your money stays within your control until you and your lawyers
are satisfied with everything.
NEVER, EVER PAY ANY FUNDS DIRECTLY INTO THE SELLERS OR ANY OTHER ACCOUNT OTHER THAN THAT OF THE ESCROW HOUSE!
We have used a major escrow house in the US for years without a problem of any kind and it is the best guarantee of protecting your money and ensuring that the product you are buying is real.
I don't think we can post names here but I am happy to PM any party the name and contacts of the escrow house we use.
Regards
carholme
1. Ensure that the entire procedure is handled by a bonded, third party escrow
service. These companies handle the deposits and the purchase funds
according to the terms set out in your LOIs and purchase agreements.
2. Ensure in your LOI that the deposit is fully refundable based upon
satisfactory inspection of the aircraft. Your deposit in (reputable) escrow
cannot be accessed by any other party until you say so, ie; once the
inspection has been completed and you notify the seller that you will
accept the aircraft.
3. Once the aircraft has been inspected and accepted by the buyer, the buyer
notifies the escrow house, who notifies the seller.
4. Once all parties are happy with the inspection results, all can proceed to
the purchase agreement. The escrow house will ensure that the buyer and
seller are ready to proceed per the terms of that Purchase Agreement. They
will ask the seller for the Bill of Sale made out to the buyer and ask the
buyer to deposit the balance of the purchase funds.
5. On acceptance by both parties to proceed with the purchase, the escrow
house will ensure that the Bill of Sale and purchase funds change hands at
the same time. The escrow house will also have de-registered the aircraft
from the seller and readied it for registration to the buyer.
They will also have ensured that there are no liens or encumbrances
against the aircraft.
This is a very simplified precis of the steps involved but handling it this way ensures that your money stays within your control until you and your lawyers
are satisfied with everything.
NEVER, EVER PAY ANY FUNDS DIRECTLY INTO THE SELLERS OR ANY OTHER ACCOUNT OTHER THAN THAT OF THE ESCROW HOUSE!
We have used a major escrow house in the US for years without a problem of any kind and it is the best guarantee of protecting your money and ensuring that the product you are buying is real.
I don't think we can post names here but I am happy to PM any party the name and contacts of the escrow house we use.
Regards
carholme
Thread Starter
carholme,
I guess that different countries do things differently. I've never paid any deposit until after an engineering inspection. Then, we sit down and discuss purchase price, etc, and then sign purchase agreements.
I wouldn't pay a deposit of any sort prior to looking at a car, house or motorbike. Why should an aircraft be different?
I guess that different countries do things differently. I've never paid any deposit until after an engineering inspection. Then, we sit down and discuss purchase price, etc, and then sign purchase agreements.
I wouldn't pay a deposit of any sort prior to looking at a car, house or motorbike. Why should an aircraft be different?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: By a river
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John;
I am not saying that you have to pay a deposit but it is the norm with large aircraft and slowly becoming the same with smaller. If you don't wish to pay a deposit, simply tell them you are not going to. My advice was for those who are in a position of having to pay a deposit and showing them how to protect their money from the scammers.
I did say in my previous, that the refundable deposit is based upon satisfactory inspection. That means that the deposit never leaves the escrow account until the inspection has been satisfactory.
Even on large a/c, what usually happens is that the deposit and purchase funds are paid directly after the inspection if both parties still wish to proceed.
A deposit, no matter how big or small is nothing more than an expression of "good faith" which there is very little of anymore.
But if you do wish to conduct business buyer to seller direct, have at 'er!
carholme
I am not saying that you have to pay a deposit but it is the norm with large aircraft and slowly becoming the same with smaller. If you don't wish to pay a deposit, simply tell them you are not going to. My advice was for those who are in a position of having to pay a deposit and showing them how to protect their money from the scammers.
I did say in my previous, that the refundable deposit is based upon satisfactory inspection. That means that the deposit never leaves the escrow account until the inspection has been satisfactory.
Even on large a/c, what usually happens is that the deposit and purchase funds are paid directly after the inspection if both parties still wish to proceed.
A deposit, no matter how big or small is nothing more than an expression of "good faith" which there is very little of anymore.
But if you do wish to conduct business buyer to seller direct, have at 'er!
carholme