NH-90 problems
Helicopters on projects of concern list
The federal government has decided to place a troubled program to buy new army and navy helicopters onto its "projects of concern" list.
That follows signing of a deed agreement last week with prime contractor Australian Aerospace to develop a pathway to get the helicopters into service.
That follows signing of a deed agreement last week with prime contractor Australian Aerospace to develop a pathway to get the helicopters into service.
That follows signing of a deed agreement last week with prime contractor Australian Aerospace to develop a pathway to get the helicopters into service.
Rough Path to Production
The NH-90 has from inception has traveled a rough path. NH Industries was formed in 1992 with the design, development, manufacture and first flight of the first NH-90 following in just 3 years (18 December 1995). Since that first flight the program has been wrought with problems, both technical and programmatic. A case may be made that that NH Industries attempted to include many yet unproven attributes in one airframe. Some of those attributes are responsible for today’s issues. Now 19 years later, with limited production continuing, it appears as if many of the initial issues are still present creating havoc for those nations that elected to procure them. Some nations, Sweden for example, have elected to procure MH-60s as an interim solution while awaiting the solutions for NH-90 problems.
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I have rarely found that trying to make your customer look stupid is a winning sales strategy. But on the other hand, there is nothing safer than a helicopter that never flies!
Navy: Europe firm ‘twisting’ facts for $1bn deal
February 21, 2012 By Sridhar Kumaraswami Correspondent New Delhi
A big controversy has hit the acquisition of 16 Multi-Role Helicopters for the Indian Navy, a deal estimated to be worth around $1 billion, with the Indian Navy accusing European vendor NH Industries (NHI) of trying to “mislead” the defence ministry, “twist” the Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQRs), “falsify” the Request for Proposal (RFP) and cause delays with “unreasonable que-ries/concerns”.
Documents accessed by this newspaper show the Navy criticised the European firm after it raised doubts about the helicopter of its American rival Sikorsky. This new US-European battle for an Indian defence deal is leading to a lot of acrimony.
NHI earlier alleged Sikorsky does not meet the NSQRs for the deal, and complained to the defence ministry. The Navy has now made it clear that both NHI and Sikorsky have met the NSQRs, making them both eligible. The Navy earlier submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FETs) report to the MoD on acquiring the anti-surface and anti-submarine MRHs. NHI, based in France and with French, German and Italian participation, pitched its NH90 helicopter against Sikorsky’s S70B.
NHI earlier raised doubts about the Sikorsky helicopter on various aspects, including dual redundancy, fitment of fuel tanks, full authority automatic flight control system, fuel reserves at the end of mission, sensor functions and usage monitoring system. The Navy has, however, given the Sikorsky helicopter a clean chit.
In its final recommendations and in response to NHI’s allegations, the Navy said: “It emerges that NHI is attempting to mislead the higher authorities and cause delays... with unreasonable queries/concerns. The Indian Navy has evaluated the (NHI) NH90 and (Sikorsky) S70B helicopters, and considers both platforms meet the NSQRs specified in... the RFP.”
On NHI’s queries on the Sikorsky helicopter’s “sensor functions” and “fitment of both external and internal fuel tanks”, the Navy said: “It is clearly evident that NHI have twisted the NSQR, thereby falsifying the Request for Proposal on the MRH with an aim to misleading the higher authorities MoD”.
NHI had raised doubts on several other features. It said: “(The NSQR) requires no failure of single system should lead to a catastrophic failure. NHI would like to understand how this is demonstrated since the S70B does not have dual redundancy built in to all aircraft flight control systems.”
Navy: Europe firm ‘twisting’ facts for $1bn deal
February 21, 2012 By Sridhar Kumaraswami Correspondent New Delhi
A big controversy has hit the acquisition of 16 Multi-Role Helicopters for the Indian Navy, a deal estimated to be worth around $1 billion, with the Indian Navy accusing European vendor NH Industries (NHI) of trying to “mislead” the defence ministry, “twist” the Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQRs), “falsify” the Request for Proposal (RFP) and cause delays with “unreasonable que-ries/concerns”.
Documents accessed by this newspaper show the Navy criticised the European firm after it raised doubts about the helicopter of its American rival Sikorsky. This new US-European battle for an Indian defence deal is leading to a lot of acrimony.
NHI earlier alleged Sikorsky does not meet the NSQRs for the deal, and complained to the defence ministry. The Navy has now made it clear that both NHI and Sikorsky have met the NSQRs, making them both eligible. The Navy earlier submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FETs) report to the MoD on acquiring the anti-surface and anti-submarine MRHs. NHI, based in France and with French, German and Italian participation, pitched its NH90 helicopter against Sikorsky’s S70B.
NHI earlier raised doubts about the Sikorsky helicopter on various aspects, including dual redundancy, fitment of fuel tanks, full authority automatic flight control system, fuel reserves at the end of mission, sensor functions and usage monitoring system. The Navy has, however, given the Sikorsky helicopter a clean chit.
In its final recommendations and in response to NHI’s allegations, the Navy said: “It emerges that NHI is attempting to mislead the higher authorities and cause delays... with unreasonable queries/concerns. The Indian Navy has evaluated the (NHI) NH90 and (Sikorsky) S70B helicopters, and considers both platforms meet the NSQRs specified in... the RFP.”
On NHI’s queries on the Sikorsky helicopter’s “sensor functions” and “fitment of both external and internal fuel tanks”, the Navy said: “It is clearly evident that NHI have twisted the NSQR, thereby falsifying the Request for Proposal on the MRH with an aim to misleading the higher authorities MoD”.
NHI had raised doubts on several other features. It said: “(The NSQR) requires no failure of single system should lead to a catastrophic failure. NHI would like to understand how this is demonstrated since the S70B does not have dual redundancy built in to all aircraft flight control systems.”
More problems for NH(F)-90
This thread has been quiet for a while.
I hope i am adding this message to the right (most recent) thread on NH-90.
This week the Dutch have stopped acceptance/delivery of 7 remaining NH-90's.
Reason is the bad corrosion resistance of the NHF frigate models.
They state to be the first customer which have used the type heavily in a saline environment.
This being in the Caribbean and Horn of Afrika.
This makes me wonder:
- What has the Italian navy done with theirs since 2011?
- What have all other customers done with their now 200 delivered NH-90?
(although not all operated out above sea, this must have been given some rust?)
- What will happen if the heli's will operate on the North Atlantic?
Below a link to the Helihub site which also covered this item.
Apologies for the terrible translation. The automatic translation programme is clearly not
up to official govermental Dutch language.
Corrosion stops Netherlands NH90 deliveries | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
In this link also contains further downlinks to the official letter to parliament (dutch) and the corrosion investigation.
The official letter also states operational consequences such as:
Night SAR capablity to be rented in (longer)
Good news for NHV!
The problems were first reported half March.
At that time WTV from Vlaanderen Belgium made a report with interview with NHV:
TV report with NHV
Also stating that
Not expressed specifically, i assume they imply that Belgian SAR could do with smaller aircraft than NH90.
It may be clear that the NH90 is not bought only to replace SAR.
Are there any Dutch or Belgian posters with more insight?
SLB
I hope i am adding this message to the right (most recent) thread on NH-90.
This week the Dutch have stopped acceptance/delivery of 7 remaining NH-90's.
Reason is the bad corrosion resistance of the NHF frigate models.
They state to be the first customer which have used the type heavily in a saline environment.
This being in the Caribbean and Horn of Afrika.
This makes me wonder:
- What has the Italian navy done with theirs since 2011?
- What have all other customers done with their now 200 delivered NH-90?
(although not all operated out above sea, this must have been given some rust?)
- What will happen if the heli's will operate on the North Atlantic?
Below a link to the Helihub site which also covered this item.
Apologies for the terrible translation. The automatic translation programme is clearly not
up to official govermental Dutch language.
Corrosion stops Netherlands NH90 deliveries | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
In this link also contains further downlinks to the official letter to parliament (dutch) and the corrosion investigation.
The official letter also states operational consequences such as:
Night SAR capablity to be rented in (longer)
Good news for NHV!
The problems were first reported half March.
At that time WTV from Vlaanderen Belgium made a report with interview with NHV:
TV report with NHV
The NH90 will have some spots but will not have heavy corrosion
The NH90 is a fantastic and highly capable platform but with high operational costs of € 13.000 to € 25.000 per hour. ......
NHV SAR Dauphins as being operated for Dutch goverment altough half the size costs roughly € 7.500 per hour ......
NHV hopes Belgian SAR would be privatised like UK.
Everyone would benifit as costs could roughly be split in half.
NHV SAR Dauphins as being operated for Dutch goverment altough half the size costs roughly € 7.500 per hour ......
NHV hopes Belgian SAR would be privatised like UK.
Everyone would benifit as costs could roughly be split in half.
It may be clear that the NH90 is not bought only to replace SAR.
Are there any Dutch or Belgian posters with more insight?
SLB
Last edited by Self loading bear; 5th Jul 2014 at 10:35. Reason: links (again)
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While the dutch have used both helicopters (one being "MOC", the other one "FOC") from ships, the italians have mainly used theirs from onshore bases..
And "highly used"?
Both dutch helicopters flew about 250 hours in maritime environment….
"Heavy corrosion" after 250 flight hours?
Come on!
It´s a piece of sh*#*-and an expensive one!
http://www.defensie.nl/binaries/defe...osie_NH-90.pdf
And "highly used"?
Both dutch helicopters flew about 250 hours in maritime environment….
"Heavy corrosion" after 250 flight hours?
Come on!
It´s a piece of sh*#*-and an expensive one!
http://www.defensie.nl/binaries/defe...osie_NH-90.pdf
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My spies tell me that there was some problems with the Oz versions hovering over the water and getting erosion on the bottom of the blades (not at the leading edge, but part way back).
Anyone care to confirm / deny?
Anyone care to confirm / deny?
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The corrosion usually does not really come from saltwater spray-most helicopters are sprayed with fresh water when they come back from flights in saline environments…..
The corrosions that they are talking about are from condensation (in parts of the helicopters that usually no one has access to) as well as from "normal" air……..
The corrosions that they are talking about are from condensation (in parts of the helicopters that usually no one has access to) as well as from "normal" air……..
A few flashbacks for me there! I remember long long ago receiving a stack of standards documents for a naval contract that included design and development. The specs for preferred materials were all for pretty standard aeroplane stuff with not a single marine material (not even 200 year old bronzes or New Forest oak
). Nothing cheap for the brown jobs to drag through the mud either. When I complained, I was asked if I would like to serve on a committee overseeing the standards. Too much to do anyway, so I declined. Perhaps NH Industries are using the same books!
salt spray
Huey racer,
It doesn't make it any better but actually the report mentions various areas where salt spray was not expected but occured due to open door operations (cockpit and areas under floor boards)
It also mentions that water was not properly drained from areas that are exposed when the tail is folded.
And it mentions that there is a limited time frame to rinse down as the aircraft is to be tied down when in high sea state. It could be that my fellow country navy men are slow or have no sea legs but i prefer to agree with your opinion about this piece of s*#*.
on the otherhand:
All helicopter models are like kids.
It takes 15 years to get rid of the child diseases....
What i have read on the internet there was a time that the Seaking lost its blades faster than Arjen Robben his hair...
SLB
It doesn't make it any better but actually the report mentions various areas where salt spray was not expected but occured due to open door operations (cockpit and areas under floor boards)
It also mentions that water was not properly drained from areas that are exposed when the tail is folded.
And it mentions that there is a limited time frame to rinse down as the aircraft is to be tied down when in high sea state. It could be that my fellow country navy men are slow or have no sea legs but i prefer to agree with your opinion about this piece of s*#*.
on the otherhand:
All helicopter models are like kids.
It takes 15 years to get rid of the child diseases....
What i have read on the internet there was a time that the Seaking lost its blades faster than Arjen Robben his hair...
SLB
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German helicopter fleet 'not fit for Nato'
Typically sensational reporting (all that's lacking is the near-miss on the orphanage), but it sounds like the Bundeswehr had an uncontained RTM322 engine failure due to a "bent driveshaft," possibly due to a thermal issue.
Typically sensational reporting (all that's lacking is the near-miss on the orphanage), but it sounds like the Bundeswehr had an uncontained RTM322 engine failure due to a "bent driveshaft," possibly due to a thermal issue.
I am not familiar with that engine.
I can empathize with the Germans on the engine's uncertain behavior as a training/readiness degrader.
Back in the early 90's, SH-60 family (B and F at the time) had some issues with the T-700 engine: uncommanded engine shutdowns.
There were a variety of electrical issues, signals crossing (related to the power sharing circuits) and wiring harnesses that sent spurious signals now and again. I remember (vagule) some diodes and seals were culprits for engines doing weird things.
It took a while for the engineers from
Marconi
Sikorsky
GE
all of whom had various subsystems involved in this lashup, to isolate all of the faults and find the fixes for them.
I will venture the following guess: the NH-90's engine issue will similarly get solved when the techs get their thinking caps on.
I can empathize with the Germans on the engine's uncertain behavior as a training/readiness degrader.
Back in the early 90's, SH-60 family (B and F at the time) had some issues with the T-700 engine: uncommanded engine shutdowns.
There were a variety of electrical issues, signals crossing (related to the power sharing circuits) and wiring harnesses that sent spurious signals now and again. I remember (vagule) some diodes and seals were culprits for engines doing weird things.
It took a while for the engineers from
Marconi
Sikorsky
GE
all of whom had various subsystems involved in this lashup, to isolate all of the faults and find the fixes for them.
I will venture the following guess: the NH-90's engine issue will similarly get solved when the techs get their thinking caps on.
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When my son was in the Saddam war the helis tasked to collect their Regiment from near the Iran boarder, were going Tech several times with and due to Cracked heads, plus bad vibes. Is this still the same sort of problem?
Peter R-B
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Peter R-B
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I am not going to say that there are no problems with NH90 NFH, but apart from all negative input here the helicopter flies very nice and easy! 
Its full fly-by-wire controls (qualified ADS-33) makes her easy to handle.
The RTM322 engines have had issues, but it is a relative new engine compared to the rather old T700.
The complex but extensive Naval Mission System has great capabilities and is qualified for 3 crew operations.
Yes, i am happy...
Its full fly-by-wire controls (qualified ADS-33) makes her easy to handle.
The RTM322 engines have had issues, but it is a relative new engine compared to the rather old T700.
The complex but extensive Naval Mission System has great capabilities and is qualified for 3 crew operations.
Yes, i am happy...
When my son was in the Saddam war the helis tasked to collect their Regiment from near the Iran boarder, were going Tech several times with and due to Cracked heads, plus bad vibes. Is this still the same sort of problem?
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Thanks for the "user feedback" g.jongeneelen
Maybe all the work and worry was worth it.
Maybe all the work and worry was worth it.
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Finnish NH90s creep towards 50% operational serviceability rate - 1/23/2015 - Flight Global
"The availability of spares is one factor behind the low availability rates, for which there is a 200-day average turnaround."
6 months to get spare parts is appalling, and that is the AVERAGE time!
"The availability of spares is one factor behind the low availability rates, for which there is a 200-day average turnaround."
6 months to get spare parts is appalling, and that is the AVERAGE time!
Question:
Is there a correlation between this helicopter being "full FBW" and the readiness rate challenges? Or is that just a coincidence?
(The spares timeline noted above is vague enough to where I wonder at what is embodied in that statistic).
Is there a correlation between this helicopter being "full FBW" and the readiness rate challenges? Or is that just a coincidence?
(The spares timeline noted above is vague enough to where I wonder at what is embodied in that statistic).
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NH90 Development
Looks like Aussies and French are starting to team up.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-force-421028/
Australia and France are investigating a potential joint requirement for a special forces variant of the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 to trim development costs.
With only a small pool of helicopters requiring modification, France would look to share the financial commitment, says Maj Gen Olivier de la Motte, commander, French army aviation.
“We are speaking about a common version at the moment with Australia,” he said on the sidelines of the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference on 18 January. “We could have the same version for both forces.”
French army aviation operates eight Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals for the mission. However later this decade the Caracals will transfer across to the air force, potentially leaving a capability gap.
Canberra, meanwhile, relies on a fleet of ageing Sikorsky S-70As to support its special operations units.
Both nations have substantial fleets of NH90s on order: Australia will eventually field a fleet of 47 of the troop transports, while the French army will have a 74-strong inventory, having added a six-unit order in January.
No decision has been made on whether to replace the departing H225Ms – either through new helicopters or modifications to the existing fleet – but the service is keen to ensure “we have the same number of airframes for each command”, says an army source.
Its special forces are in the early stages of drawing up the technical specification for any replacement, with the requirements likely to encompass a central trapdoor for fast roping, a rear door gun and changes to the communications suite.
“It is very early in the process,” says the source. “Our special forces would like the NH90, but want them to a certain specification. They make a request and then there will be an answer – yes to everything, yes to some things, or no to everything. Then [if appropriate] they will have to decide what they can do without."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-force-421028/
Australia and France are investigating a potential joint requirement for a special forces variant of the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 to trim development costs.
With only a small pool of helicopters requiring modification, France would look to share the financial commitment, says Maj Gen Olivier de la Motte, commander, French army aviation.
“We are speaking about a common version at the moment with Australia,” he said on the sidelines of the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference on 18 January. “We could have the same version for both forces.”
French army aviation operates eight Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals for the mission. However later this decade the Caracals will transfer across to the air force, potentially leaving a capability gap.
Canberra, meanwhile, relies on a fleet of ageing Sikorsky S-70As to support its special operations units.
Both nations have substantial fleets of NH90s on order: Australia will eventually field a fleet of 47 of the troop transports, while the French army will have a 74-strong inventory, having added a six-unit order in January.
No decision has been made on whether to replace the departing H225Ms – either through new helicopters or modifications to the existing fleet – but the service is keen to ensure “we have the same number of airframes for each command”, says an army source.
Its special forces are in the early stages of drawing up the technical specification for any replacement, with the requirements likely to encompass a central trapdoor for fast roping, a rear door gun and changes to the communications suite.
“It is very early in the process,” says the source. “Our special forces would like the NH90, but want them to a certain specification. They make a request and then there will be an answer – yes to everything, yes to some things, or no to everything. Then [if appropriate] they will have to decide what they can do without."
