Helicopter shared ownership
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
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300cbi
'Every school that runs 300s that I have worked at, or hired from has always had problems with 300s'
Bournemouth swear by thiers and we have had one for two years and its been great...minor issue with a part being dropped but not the heli's fault. Think 300cbi are the best training aircraft ever!
Bournemouth swear by thiers and we have had one for two years and its been great...minor issue with a part being dropped but not the heli's fault. Think 300cbi are the best training aircraft ever!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Derbyshire
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intereted in part share 300 or R22/44 Barton/Gtr Mcr
"R44 shares available at Barton- Cyclic Flare"
I am interested in a part share at Barton or the Greater Manchester area. I am training at Barton on a 300CBI and will be low hours naturally when I pass. I am an experienced PPL(A) but I know that does not count! Anyone who may have any contacts, please let me know, I'd be grateful. Many thanks.
I am interested in a part share at Barton or the Greater Manchester area. I am training at Barton on a 300CBI and will be low hours naturally when I pass. I am an experienced PPL(A) but I know that does not count! Anyone who may have any contacts, please let me know, I'd be grateful. Many thanks.
Hughes 300 Reliability
Hi - I have now been flying the hughes 300 for a year and on one occasion after shut down, the master electrical breaker failed to operate.
The problem was traced to a relay that was replaced for about £100.
Apart from that the batteries in the digital clock needed changing.
So based on that I can understand whay they have a bad rep !
The problem was traced to a relay that was replaced for about £100.
Apart from that the batteries in the digital clock needed changing.
So based on that I can understand whay they have a bad rep !
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Clitheroe, Lancs
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I'm part of a group running an Enstrom 480 based at Manchester Barton. It's always available and any unexpected costs are split five ways. It's the way to go if you want low cost flying. Let me know if you want details.
Hughes / Schweizer H300 Reliability Strikes Again!
Yes - after a year of trouble-free flying one of the skid tubes has developed a crack where the wheel attaches - apparently during ground handling.
I can see the problem with these H300s
Seriously - if an R22 is still going year on year after 30 years (without being rebuilt every 12) I'll be impressed.
Anyone got a LHS Skid Assy for a H300C going cheap?
CC
I can see the problem with these H300s
Seriously - if an R22 is still going year on year after 30 years (without being rebuilt every 12) I'll be impressed.
Anyone got a LHS Skid Assy for a H300C going cheap?
CC
R22 Group
Potential R44 Available for Sharing/SFH
Anyone interested in regularly flying an R44 (either with or without equity)out of a West of London airfield please PM me.
Per Hour Wet Costs likely to be about half the commercial rate.
No significant limitations (hours, type ratings etc.) even potential to do ab-initio training.
Probably based somewhere like Denham, White Waltham, High Wycombe, possibly Fairoaks, Blackbushe.
If there are sufficient people avaiable we can probably operate a group at a very low cost and with a very limited commitment.
CC
Per Hour Wet Costs likely to be about half the commercial rate.
No significant limitations (hours, type ratings etc.) even potential to do ab-initio training.
Probably based somewhere like Denham, White Waltham, High Wycombe, possibly Fairoaks, Blackbushe.
If there are sufficient people avaiable we can probably operate a group at a very low cost and with a very limited commitment.
CC
chopperchappie
Have got a ground handling trolley spare if you are looking.PM if interested
Heard of two in last 12 months broken at ground wheel spigot hole, big hole in smallish skid no doubler
Have got a ground handling trolley spare if you are looking.PM if interested
Heard of two in last 12 months broken at ground wheel spigot hole, big hole in smallish skid no doubler
Helimover
500e
Hi - Just have bought helimover for the H300, but there are a couple of options for R44 group ownership or commercial, but I guess in either case the aircraft will be manoevered by the people that hangar it (in this case most likely Heliair) and they should have a helimover but thanks and if that's not the case I'll give you a shout back.
Hi - Just have bought helimover for the H300, but there are a couple of options for R44 group ownership or commercial, but I guess in either case the aircraft will be manoevered by the people that hangar it (in this case most likely Heliair) and they should have a helimover but thanks and if that's not the case I'll give you a shout back.
Last edited by chopperchappie; 12th Jan 2011 at 22:22.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midlands
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The idea of flying an R44 at half the commercial rate sounds very attractive.
So with 44s renting out for £400 to £450/hr that means you will be getting to fly for £200 - £225/hr
Let's just do a quick back of the envelope calculation on that on say a Raven II.
Taking RHC published figures you will need to allow for overhaul costs on a time flown or calendar basis this will be $177,826 or around £118,551 or approx £54 per hour flown and if you dont't fly at least 183.33 hours per year it will still cost you £823 per month.
Dependant on the experience of your group members and the value of the machine you use expect insurance to cost £600 - £800 per month
Then there is hangarage. Depending on where you base the machine don't expect to pay less than £400 per month + 20% VAT.
Maintenance will set you back £4,000 - £5,000 per year if you are putting on an average of 4 hours per week flying.
And finally there is fuel. The Raven II is the easiest helicopter to calculate required fuel for a trip, it burns a litre a minute or approx £105's worth of Avgas an hour.
Adding that up on the basis of 183 hours per year you get an hourly equivalent rate of;
£54 overhaul allowance
£49 insurance
£22 maintenance
£30 hangarage
£105 Avgas
£260 total per hour
OK it's only a rough guide, not chapter & verse,
It doesn't cover the unexpected things going wrong or RHC hitting you with a SB to replace the fuel tanks by end of 2014 at a cost of around at least £9,000 unless the helicopter you buy is a late model which already has the bladder tanks.
To be on the safe side add another 10% to your hourly rates to cover contingencies and divi then it up at Christmas if all goes well.
Although I have used RHC figures in some of the above I have also used 10 years experience of owning and flying an R44.
So with 44s renting out for £400 to £450/hr that means you will be getting to fly for £200 - £225/hr
Let's just do a quick back of the envelope calculation on that on say a Raven II.
Taking RHC published figures you will need to allow for overhaul costs on a time flown or calendar basis this will be $177,826 or around £118,551 or approx £54 per hour flown and if you dont't fly at least 183.33 hours per year it will still cost you £823 per month.
Dependant on the experience of your group members and the value of the machine you use expect insurance to cost £600 - £800 per month
Then there is hangarage. Depending on where you base the machine don't expect to pay less than £400 per month + 20% VAT.
Maintenance will set you back £4,000 - £5,000 per year if you are putting on an average of 4 hours per week flying.
And finally there is fuel. The Raven II is the easiest helicopter to calculate required fuel for a trip, it burns a litre a minute or approx £105's worth of Avgas an hour.
Adding that up on the basis of 183 hours per year you get an hourly equivalent rate of;
£54 overhaul allowance
£49 insurance
£22 maintenance
£30 hangarage
£105 Avgas
£260 total per hour
OK it's only a rough guide, not chapter & verse,
It doesn't cover the unexpected things going wrong or RHC hitting you with a SB to replace the fuel tanks by end of 2014 at a cost of around at least £9,000 unless the helicopter you buy is a late model which already has the bladder tanks.
To be on the safe side add another 10% to your hourly rates to cover contingencies and divi then it up at Christmas if all goes well.
Although I have used RHC figures in some of the above I have also used 10 years experience of owning and flying an R44.
Cost Model
northpoint
Yes is the broad answer. Nice Analysis. Figures not far from mine (assumes yours are inc VAT).
But broadly speaking IMHO it makes sense to buy a mid-hours R44Raven II rather than new and split the costs into two buckets;
Standing Costs - Those costs which if it doesn't move you still have to pay (monthly);
So cut a long story short you need to split the standing costs between the sharers and it doesn't really matter how you do it across how many sharers as long as the costs are covered and divided by the number of hours flown a year work out substantially less than renting.
Problem is they will never work out with everyone's perceived "ideal world" where there are 4 owners all paying £100pm plus £200ph wet flying 20-30 hours a year. Aircraft is always available - but if that's the case it's really not efficient! You need to fly the aircraft at least 250, better 300 hours a year to get the standing and per hour costs low enough.
The only way it works is to have few owners flying shed loads of hours and most people that can afford that don't have the time to do that, or more people flying less hours each and paying less each. Either way it's nearly the same availability and stress on the aircraft.
SO I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A COUPLE MORE POTENTIAL NON-PROFIT SHARERS FOR A POSSIBLE R44 R2 BASED OUT OF NORTH/WEST LONDON (Wycombe, Denham, Waltham) with or without equity ownership
Anyone seriously interested in flying 20-30 hours plus at roughly half commercial rental rates please PM/EM me pronto. I'll send some data back by email.
Thanks
CC
Yes is the broad answer. Nice Analysis. Figures not far from mine (assumes yours are inc VAT).
But broadly speaking IMHO it makes sense to buy a mid-hours R44Raven II rather than new and split the costs into two buckets;
Standing Costs - Those costs which if it doesn't move you still have to pay (monthly);
- Buying / Finance / Depreciation
- Insurance
- Hangar / Accommodation - this offsets maintenance corrosion etc.
- Annual Service
- Mandatory ADs Upgrades (Mode S) etc.
- FUEL - Argghhhh OMG How much!
- Scheduled Maintenance
- Unscheduled Maintenance
So cut a long story short you need to split the standing costs between the sharers and it doesn't really matter how you do it across how many sharers as long as the costs are covered and divided by the number of hours flown a year work out substantially less than renting.
Problem is they will never work out with everyone's perceived "ideal world" where there are 4 owners all paying £100pm plus £200ph wet flying 20-30 hours a year. Aircraft is always available - but if that's the case it's really not efficient! You need to fly the aircraft at least 250, better 300 hours a year to get the standing and per hour costs low enough.
The only way it works is to have few owners flying shed loads of hours and most people that can afford that don't have the time to do that, or more people flying less hours each and paying less each. Either way it's nearly the same availability and stress on the aircraft.
SO I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A COUPLE MORE POTENTIAL NON-PROFIT SHARERS FOR A POSSIBLE R44 R2 BASED OUT OF NORTH/WEST LONDON (Wycombe, Denham, Waltham) with or without equity ownership
Anyone seriously interested in flying 20-30 hours plus at roughly half commercial rental rates please PM/EM me pronto. I'll send some data back by email.
Thanks
CC
