Longline comms tower construction. Hardest thing I've ever done. Any clues?
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Longline comms tower construction. Hardest thing I've ever done. Any clues?
Last week I had to fly on a communication tower construction job. It was a 30 meter guyed tower. Three 10 meter sections. The first pilot put up the first 20 meters and never having tried anything like it before, I did the top 10.
First I attempted it on a short line, trying to hold position reference things on the ground and following instructions from the riggers who were up the tower attempting to bolt it together as I swung it past them. That didn't work, they sounded really scared over the two-way as well.
Next I tried it on a 20 meter long line and managed to place the top section reasonably accurately on the tower. Trouble was that because the bolts were only 2 inches long and the Huey had a bit of a bounce and the wind was gusting a bit, after about 10 minutes of neck crinking and highly excited blasphemy from the riggers we decide to give that a miss as well. Any time I tried to sit the section down the tension came off the line and it would lean away and threaten to slide off. Pick it up to rectify that just meant I had to start all over again.
We did get it the next day. The wind was fairly calm and we strapped a 3 meter coppers log up the guts of the section we were trying to put up which slid into the top of the existing tower and held it mostly upright so the riggers could bolt it all together. Then when it was secure they unfastened the sling from the tower and fastened it to the coppers log which I lifted up through the centre of the now mantled (opposite of dismantled?) tower.
That worked and everybody was happy.
My question is, how do you guys who do this all the time get it done without killing someone? There must be some trick of the trade I don't know about. I saw photos of a Mil 8 building a very tall tower near Mt Barker in WA a few years ago. How the hell do you do that?
First I attempted it on a short line, trying to hold position reference things on the ground and following instructions from the riggers who were up the tower attempting to bolt it together as I swung it past them. That didn't work, they sounded really scared over the two-way as well.
Next I tried it on a 20 meter long line and managed to place the top section reasonably accurately on the tower. Trouble was that because the bolts were only 2 inches long and the Huey had a bit of a bounce and the wind was gusting a bit, after about 10 minutes of neck crinking and highly excited blasphemy from the riggers we decide to give that a miss as well. Any time I tried to sit the section down the tension came off the line and it would lean away and threaten to slide off. Pick it up to rectify that just meant I had to start all over again.
We did get it the next day. The wind was fairly calm and we strapped a 3 meter coppers log up the guts of the section we were trying to put up which slid into the top of the existing tower and held it mostly upright so the riggers could bolt it all together. Then when it was secure they unfastened the sling from the tower and fastened it to the coppers log which I lifted up through the centre of the now mantled (opposite of dismantled?) tower.
That worked and everybody was happy.
My question is, how do you guys who do this all the time get it done without killing someone? There must be some trick of the trade I don't know about. I saw photos of a Mil 8 building a very tall tower near Mt Barker in WA a few years ago. How the hell do you do that?
Last edited by Lowlevldevl; 24th May 2009 at 02:42.
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Hey,
This is a very specialised job and normally you do not jump into it unless you had some prior training. We tried bolting a big sign board to a building many years ago using the good old S61 with 2 crew and a crewman but in the end had to abort it. It was ALMOST an incident!
This is a very specialised job and normally you do not jump into it unless you had some prior training. We tried bolting a big sign board to a building many years ago using the good old S61 with 2 crew and a crewman but in the end had to abort it. It was ALMOST an incident!
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This has got to be a wind-up, right?
I can't honestly believe that you would post on an internet forum for advice on how to do your job.
I can't offer advice to you on the technique used, but what I would recommend is to seek advice from someone who I know and trust. Preferably the guy, or gal, that signed you off for this type of work.
Why not sit next to the previous pilot to watch and learn?
Sorry if this seems a little harsh, but, by your own admission, you were, simply, not experienced enough for this sortie.
I can't honestly believe that you would post on an internet forum for advice on how to do your job.
I can't offer advice to you on the technique used, but what I would recommend is to seek advice from someone who I know and trust. Preferably the guy, or gal, that signed you off for this type of work.
Why not sit next to the previous pilot to watch and learn?
Sorry if this seems a little harsh, but, by your own admission, you were, simply, not experienced enough for this sortie.
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no trick..
just practice...
I don't think there are too many pilots out there who can put a line on for the first time and be immediately proficient..
although some will tell you different...
just practice...
I don't think there are too many pilots out there who can put a line on for the first time and be immediately proficient..
although some will tell you different...
Last edited by R.OCKAPE; 24th May 2009 at 09:17.
No fault of your own, but you shouldn't have been assigned to that task without adequate training and completed a competency check. The first 10 (or so) hours after the competency check should be under supervision, prior to being released solo. You were thrown in the deep end here, the 204/05/12 is a difficult platform for long-lining. All things considered you were lucky, obviously helped out by enough skill to pull it off, just.
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...
LLD
The line you were using sounds a bit short? ... It’s much easier for the riggers to push the section around for final placement when the line is longer… and you don’t have to move the machine around as much...
You can have the sight picture/hook off to one side a skoshe (not a lot more) and they’ll still get the pins or bolts in…Also don’t overestimate the experience/competence level of the riggers as they are a key element of any smooth operation…
Think of the 1:60 rule in a vertical sense…D = Length of longline
At D X 60 (longer-line) You can move around say 4 degrees from the vertical at the helicopter end (due to over controlling or wind etc)
At D X 15 (shorter-line) You can only move around 1 degree from the vertical for the same amount of movement at the hook end. So the control accuracy you need at the helicopter end is much greater with a shorter line.. This is of course predicated on you being comfortable with the longer line and making small smooth corrections and getting the sight picture back over the target zone…
You were working with D X 15 accuracy requirements and it made the job much harder….I hope this makes sense?...Sounds unnecessarily complicated but I can’t think of a better way to explain it…Try to use a longer line at all times, and then when you really need the accuracy it’ll be a lot easier
Good luck with future towers….170’
The line you were using sounds a bit short? ... It’s much easier for the riggers to push the section around for final placement when the line is longer… and you don’t have to move the machine around as much...
You can have the sight picture/hook off to one side a skoshe (not a lot more) and they’ll still get the pins or bolts in…Also don’t overestimate the experience/competence level of the riggers as they are a key element of any smooth operation…
Think of the 1:60 rule in a vertical sense…D = Length of longline
At D X 60 (longer-line) You can move around say 4 degrees from the vertical at the helicopter end (due to over controlling or wind etc)
At D X 15 (shorter-line) You can only move around 1 degree from the vertical for the same amount of movement at the hook end. So the control accuracy you need at the helicopter end is much greater with a shorter line.. This is of course predicated on you being comfortable with the longer line and making small smooth corrections and getting the sight picture back over the target zone…
You were working with D X 15 accuracy requirements and it made the job much harder….I hope this makes sense?...Sounds unnecessarily complicated but I can’t think of a better way to explain it…Try to use a longer line at all times, and then when you really need the accuracy it’ll be a lot easier
Good luck with future towers….170’
Last edited by 170'; 24th May 2009 at 13:23.
I think 170' has good advice here, & mathematical formulae to back it up! I don't do production long-lining, so when I get asked to perform I'm usually a little out of practice. Providing I don't need the length for obstacle clearance, I use our shortest line (50ft) when placing objects down when there is no-one on the ground to assist as I find it easier for me to control, & 120 ft when there is some-one on the ground to asssist as it makes it easier for them to control. I haven't done many tower constructions, but acknowledging up front that the riggers will need to control the load in all directions except vertical & planning for that might help?
P.S. - By the way "beater", apt name. I'll bet it came naturally to you.
P.S. - By the way "beater", apt name. I'll bet it came naturally to you.
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It's insane to do this kind of work having never done "anything like it" before. I can understand why the ground crew were swearing and cursing at you. It sounds like all were fortunate that no-one got hurt. It would have been very easy for you to have taken off a finger or two, or worse.
The only way you get good at this is practice. I love the fact that these guys are quoting formulae at you to help you. Only on PPRune!
The only way you get good at this is practice. I love the fact that these guys are quoting formulae at you to help you. Only on PPRune!
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You Clown
AirWon,
You are a clown. All you require is a sling check which I'm sure he has.
When Bristow came to PNG they told us that you could not use a 200' line under a puma(330) and that there is no way we could build rigs underneath it. Well you could only guess what happened when we done it.
Hope you are not one of the same Bristow boys who came to PNG
Banger
You are a clown. All you require is a sling check which I'm sure he has.
When Bristow came to PNG they told us that you could not use a 200' line under a puma(330) and that there is no way we could build rigs underneath it. Well you could only guess what happened when we done it.
Hope you are not one of the same Bristow boys who came to PNG
Banger
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AirWon,
You are a clown. All you require is a sling check which I'm sure he has.
When Bristow came to PNG they told us that you could not use a 200' line under a puma(330) and that there is no way we could build rigs underneath it. Well you could only guess what happened when we done it.
Hope you are not one of the same Bristow boys who came to PNG
Banger
You are a clown. All you require is a sling check which I'm sure he has.
When Bristow came to PNG they told us that you could not use a 200' line under a puma(330) and that there is no way we could build rigs underneath it. Well you could only guess what happened when we done it.
Hope you are not one of the same Bristow boys who came to PNG
Banger
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You know, this industry never ceases to give me a chuckle.
Taken at face value, somebody attempted a job they hadn't done before, or had been trained to do - if there's anyone on here with any real utility category experience who claims to have never been put in that position, I call bull-****.
Moving on.
Tower construction can be difficult, but like almost everything we routinely do in helicopters, it CAN be done, and it CAN be done safely. Meaning, you only need to learn how, it's not voo-doo magic that only some of us get to use. Asking questions (albeit prior to the event) is a very large part of that learning curve.
Line length is individual preference. I set with anything from 50ft to 150ft depending on the job, the helicopter in use, the terrain, and the ground crew. How do I know which to use? Experience. The human eye isn't able to effectively discern depth beyond roughly 100ft, so in order to use a longer line effectively for precision work you need two things: experience on longer lines, and a bag of tricks to work around your inability to accurately judge depth - that comes with the experience.
Setting a tower on a small reference point can be intimidating, but you have to realize that setting it the top of the first piece requires nothing more than the skills required to set it on a 2ft by 2ft piece of wood lying on the ground, or any other given place. So, it becomes a mental game. You MUST relax, you MUST realize you have put an object in a specific spot before and can do it again.
The major issue with towers is lack of reference in close proximity to where you are aiming as it is already elevated and small. So, you must use other things to maintain a smooth and controlled hover. Look up more often, use the horizon, it is easy to get fixated on the guys below, but that presents an number of issues in terms of the time it takes to recognize a/c movement. As 170' points out, longer lines give you more lee-way, BUT, and it is a BIG but, shorter lines allow MUCH quicker reaction to movement of the object. A/c downwash being equal, I will use 50ft over 100ft if I can get away with it as I can see much more accurately. Some a/c have intense down wash, so that may not be an option.
Also, if it's not working out, fly away.... It is no good sitting there stressed out and frustrated for 15 mins hovering a potentially lethal load above a few guys. You get more tense, you get more abrupt on the controls, and you become less likely to have success. Fly away, relax, try again.
Use tag lines on the piece you are setting, it allows the ground/tower crew to grab the next bit when it is 5ft above them and slowly guide it down - MUCH easier.
Anyway, it seems most of you pundits have never done anything like this before, and to jump on someone who is simply asking a question is immature, unprofessional, and to be quite frank, juvenile.
Practicing something like this can be as simple as going and setting an empty hook on top of a sharp pine tree a few times, same same, but different.
RH
Taken at face value, somebody attempted a job they hadn't done before, or had been trained to do - if there's anyone on here with any real utility category experience who claims to have never been put in that position, I call bull-****.
Moving on.
Tower construction can be difficult, but like almost everything we routinely do in helicopters, it CAN be done, and it CAN be done safely. Meaning, you only need to learn how, it's not voo-doo magic that only some of us get to use. Asking questions (albeit prior to the event) is a very large part of that learning curve.
Line length is individual preference. I set with anything from 50ft to 150ft depending on the job, the helicopter in use, the terrain, and the ground crew. How do I know which to use? Experience. The human eye isn't able to effectively discern depth beyond roughly 100ft, so in order to use a longer line effectively for precision work you need two things: experience on longer lines, and a bag of tricks to work around your inability to accurately judge depth - that comes with the experience.
Setting a tower on a small reference point can be intimidating, but you have to realize that setting it the top of the first piece requires nothing more than the skills required to set it on a 2ft by 2ft piece of wood lying on the ground, or any other given place. So, it becomes a mental game. You MUST relax, you MUST realize you have put an object in a specific spot before and can do it again.
The major issue with towers is lack of reference in close proximity to where you are aiming as it is already elevated and small. So, you must use other things to maintain a smooth and controlled hover. Look up more often, use the horizon, it is easy to get fixated on the guys below, but that presents an number of issues in terms of the time it takes to recognize a/c movement. As 170' points out, longer lines give you more lee-way, BUT, and it is a BIG but, shorter lines allow MUCH quicker reaction to movement of the object. A/c downwash being equal, I will use 50ft over 100ft if I can get away with it as I can see much more accurately. Some a/c have intense down wash, so that may not be an option.
Also, if it's not working out, fly away.... It is no good sitting there stressed out and frustrated for 15 mins hovering a potentially lethal load above a few guys. You get more tense, you get more abrupt on the controls, and you become less likely to have success. Fly away, relax, try again.
Use tag lines on the piece you are setting, it allows the ground/tower crew to grab the next bit when it is 5ft above them and slowly guide it down - MUCH easier.
Anyway, it seems most of you pundits have never done anything like this before, and to jump on someone who is simply asking a question is immature, unprofessional, and to be quite frank, juvenile.
Practicing something like this can be as simple as going and setting an empty hook on top of a sharp pine tree a few times, same same, but different.
RH
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Wow! I head out to SF for a little R&R with the wife and kids, come back and find that I'm a clown! Didn't see that coming. And I thought this was PPRune too. If I'd wanted that sort of comment I'd have made a dumb post on JH.
Can't be bothered with a comeback, which is not like me....but no, never worked for Bristow.
With thanks to Mr. Diamond.
Can't be bothered with a comeback, which is not like me....but no, never worked for Bristow.
With thanks to Mr. Diamond.
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170', Heliduck, Remote Hook,
Thanks for the constructive comment. Those are some helpful pieces of advice.
Others,
Maybe I was a little casual in my statement about having never done anything like it before. I've done a fair bit of long line work (for an Aussie) I guess, mostly with a bucket under the Huey. But also some general freight under a LongRanger in PNG etc; I can't recall doing any precision long line work like this though. I knew it would be challenging but found it genuinely tough. As RH said, being able to judge height when the target is small, obscured by the load and already 20 meters AGL was the main issue.
My hat goes off to you guys who're good at this.
I still want to know how they did the tower at Mt Barker. It's something like 500' high. It was the Mil 8 from NZ I believe. Do Mil's and Kamov's have autohover? I hope so, sure hate to think some Kiwi can do something like that by eyeball and hand and I can't
Thanks for the constructive comment. Those are some helpful pieces of advice.
Others,
Maybe I was a little casual in my statement about having never done anything like it before. I've done a fair bit of long line work (for an Aussie) I guess, mostly with a bucket under the Huey. But also some general freight under a LongRanger in PNG etc; I can't recall doing any precision long line work like this though. I knew it would be challenging but found it genuinely tough. As RH said, being able to judge height when the target is small, obscured by the load and already 20 meters AGL was the main issue.
My hat goes off to you guys who're good at this.
I still want to know how they did the tower at Mt Barker. It's something like 500' high. It was the Mil 8 from NZ I believe. Do Mil's and Kamov's have autohover? I hope so, sure hate to think some Kiwi can do something like that by eyeball and hand and I can't
Last edited by Lowlevldevl; 25th May 2009 at 02:53.
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Banger -
Did you fly the rig components out to site then hover there whilst they were bolted together? Didn't they have Petticrew(?) cranes on site to take over? What kind of distances were involved? Did you ever run short of fuel on the return if they had battled to get a stubborn bolt in place?
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No ferry, sections were on the ground adjacent to the tower.
No cranes. If they could have used a crane they wouldn't have needed a helicopter.
350 kg under the Huey....no problem. Just couldn't keep the damn thing fixed in space.
Fuel was no problem either.
No cranes. If they could have used a crane they wouldn't have needed a helicopter.
350 kg under the Huey....no problem. Just couldn't keep the damn thing fixed in space.
Fuel was no problem either.
Remote Hook
AMEN to that.....
I do not have production longline time, all I do is long line buckets, blivets, tools, redbags and food to a five foot radius circle on a 150' line. I thought I was good, until I saw ex-siesmic, logging, tower construction, and other production pilots on the fire line......
Continually learning...... my hat off to you guys.... it is an art form that is a delight to watch.
if there's anyone on here with any real utility category experience who claims to have never been put in that position, I call bull-****.
I do not have production longline time, all I do is long line buckets, blivets, tools, redbags and food to a five foot radius circle on a 150' line. I thought I was good, until I saw ex-siesmic, logging, tower construction, and other production pilots on the fire line......
Continually learning...... my hat off to you guys.... it is an art form that is a delight to watch.
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Misunderstandings !
It seemed obvious to me LLD was an experienced utility pilot or he wouldn’t be flying a Huey down there…My presumption was that he only needed to work on finessing the final placement…...If he was not trained and capable, no-one would have giving him the machine to play with. Ozzie operators are generally fussy about who they let drive their machinery…
I knew the formula was a bad mistake as I wrote It but I’m currently reading a book full of formulae , and thought I’d give it a go!....That’ll teach me ;-)
RH…Agree totally re perception etc and as you said the downwash footprint won’t allow it with many machines. But again personally, I get spooked being too close to anything solid in case the machine has a hissy fit of some kind, and an attempted hovering auto or rpm recovery becomes the highlight of the day….I'm maybe slower than most and need to feel I can go east before I go south ;-))
170'
It seemed obvious to me LLD was an experienced utility pilot or he wouldn’t be flying a Huey down there…My presumption was that he only needed to work on finessing the final placement…...If he was not trained and capable, no-one would have giving him the machine to play with. Ozzie operators are generally fussy about who they let drive their machinery…
I knew the formula was a bad mistake as I wrote It but I’m currently reading a book full of formulae , and thought I’d give it a go!....That’ll teach me ;-)
RH…Agree totally re perception etc and as you said the downwash footprint won’t allow it with many machines. But again personally, I get spooked being too close to anything solid in case the machine has a hissy fit of some kind, and an attempted hovering auto or rpm recovery becomes the highlight of the day….I'm maybe slower than most and need to feel I can go east before I go south ;-))
170'
Keep the formulae coming 170'. As previously stated we are often given tasks we have never done before so we work it out at the time & we do things a certain way because it works. It's good to have some academic reasoning to back us up when defending our methods on the back of a coaster at the pub.
Just a thought - The ability to work out the best way to complete a job without prior experience & keeping everyone safe is what makes a good utility pilot. Lowlevldevl had a problem & solved it with a Koppers log up the centre of the tower - thinking outside the box.
P.S. - Your assumption is correct 170', LLD is a very experienced pilot.
Just a thought - The ability to work out the best way to complete a job without prior experience & keeping everyone safe is what makes a good utility pilot. Lowlevldevl had a problem & solved it with a Koppers log up the centre of the tower - thinking outside the box.
P.S. - Your assumption is correct 170', LLD is a very experienced pilot.
