MD - All Not Good in Mesa
Hi Wallsend
Unfortunately, I have never flown the 902 but have always had a respect for it as a HEMS machine. That view has been supported by comments from pilots who have flown it and loved it (I've yet to meet one who has flown it and not loved it for the job).
However, going back to the red decision to go EC135, I banged the table to one of those senior redtop men that the 902 would be a far superior HEMS machine. What more could we ask than a great big boxy cabin and a tail rotor fan tucked away from danger? The response was that the MD people were very nice people to deal with (and this was in the very early days after MD got sold off) but that at that time the support that MD could offer was not what we would demand for our customers. Secondly, minor maintenance tasks like removing panels to change a generator were a nightmare compared to the 135. Exchange rates may have had an impact on the decision but the comments above appear to have been prophetic about the 902's problems to date.
I have never seen evidence of the maintenance problems on the 135 that you mention, generally the engineers love it.
Regards
TeeS
Unfortunately, I have never flown the 902 but have always had a respect for it as a HEMS machine. That view has been supported by comments from pilots who have flown it and loved it (I've yet to meet one who has flown it and not loved it for the job).
However, going back to the red decision to go EC135, I banged the table to one of those senior redtop men that the 902 would be a far superior HEMS machine. What more could we ask than a great big boxy cabin and a tail rotor fan tucked away from danger? The response was that the MD people were very nice people to deal with (and this was in the very early days after MD got sold off) but that at that time the support that MD could offer was not what we would demand for our customers. Secondly, minor maintenance tasks like removing panels to change a generator were a nightmare compared to the 135. Exchange rates may have had an impact on the decision but the comments above appear to have been prophetic about the 902's problems to date.
I have never seen evidence of the maintenance problems on the 135 that you mention, generally the engineers love it.
Regards
TeeS
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Hi Tees,
Re the redtop decision, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on that. I'm only repeating what I was told by a long-time operator with them who was on the inside at the time.
Re the engineers loving it. You would have recognised utter hatred in the eyes of the engineer I saw last week! But it was freezing in the hangar which didn't help!
Further to engineering, the 135 is a delight to Check A. The 902 isn't (it can be a complete pain). That's because everything's high up on the machine. That's the downside of the big cabin.
You mention the "902's problems to date." I would take issue with the "to date" part of your comment there. I'm probably tempting providence but things are pretty good at the moment and have been for some time. We could engage in "what if LT does this or that" but certainly the support I see for the 902s I deal with is the same if not superior to that of the 135s I see.
Re the redtop decision, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on that. I'm only repeating what I was told by a long-time operator with them who was on the inside at the time.
Re the engineers loving it. You would have recognised utter hatred in the eyes of the engineer I saw last week! But it was freezing in the hangar which didn't help!
Further to engineering, the 135 is a delight to Check A. The 902 isn't (it can be a complete pain). That's because everything's high up on the machine. That's the downside of the big cabin.
You mention the "902's problems to date." I would take issue with the "to date" part of your comment there. I'm probably tempting providence but things are pretty good at the moment and have been for some time. We could engage in "what if LT does this or that" but certainly the support I see for the 902s I deal with is the same if not superior to that of the 135s I see.
minor maintenance tasks like removing panels to change a generator were a nightmare compared to the 135
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I like flying the 135 a lot but I am regularly mystified by the absolutely virulently negative attitude some peolple have towards the 902. The only thing they seem have in common is that they aren't type rated on it. (it can't, of course, because some have a vested interest in pushing Eurocopter products...oh no
)
)
I called my friend and told him what I thought and asked him how much time he had in NOTAR machines and why he disliked the system so much. His reply was that he had never flown one, that was just what he had heard. I ran across this many times in my 8 years at MD and still heard it today. From 99 to 2005, much of that was diven by friendly marketeers from a major European helicopter manufacturer. I have lots of 1 on 1 conversations to verify that.
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I too was uncertain even sceptical about the Notar system before I was type-rated on the Explorer. Then one day I saw a 902 hover taxying very slowly with a 40 kt crosswind from the right. Something I had been told emphatically it couldn't do!!
Wallsend
i can only assume that those that support the 135 and denigrate the 902 are awake and make good use of their communication skills.
I never heard of the instance you mention very vaguely in your post [so effectively I still have not got any information upon which I can ask questions].
I have absolutely no reason not to write negative stuff about the 135 or any other airframe type but as the promoters of the 902 [or are they just denigrators of the 135?] seem to have been particularly incapable of getting their positive information out there. Getting chapter and verse on any negatives to me seems not to be an option.
All the material in PAN is based upon input - and I am not aware of running any detrimental to 902 stuff in ages.
They say you get out what you put in.
Input NIL
Output NIL
i can only assume that those that support the 135 and denigrate the 902 are awake and make good use of their communication skills.
I never heard of the instance you mention very vaguely in your post [so effectively I still have not got any information upon which I can ask questions].
I have absolutely no reason not to write negative stuff about the 135 or any other airframe type but as the promoters of the 902 [or are they just denigrators of the 135?] seem to have been particularly incapable of getting their positive information out there. Getting chapter and verse on any negatives to me seems not to be an option.
All the material in PAN is based upon input - and I am not aware of running any detrimental to 902 stuff in ages.
They say you get out what you put in.
Input NIL
Output NIL
Last edited by PANews; 13th Dec 2010 at 07:43. Reason: text alterations
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To take your point about the information concerning the 135 that was out for 5 weeks. This was a police machine that left its northern base in mid-Feb this year and did not return until end-March. The reason for not spouting on about it was here or passing it for inclusion in your journal was confidentiality. I.e. not letting the bad lads in the region know there was no immediate air support to curtail their games - something the 135 and its crews there had been very successful at. (I don't intend to spill any more beans on this one you'll just have to take my word on it but I spent a lot of time hanging on the end of a phone at the time frustratingly awaiting its return!)
Re denigrating the 135. Here's some comments from my recent posts on this thread:
"I like flying the 135 a lot" and "the 135 is a delight to Check A". I would add to those statements it's brilliant OEI performance and the superb training mode in the CPDS versions.
My point is that there's probably not a lot to choose between the 135 and the 902, but that some people seem desperate to run the latter down without a lot of evidence to support their views.
Long may they BOTH continue in service!!
Re denigrating the 135. Here's some comments from my recent posts on this thread:
"I like flying the 135 a lot" and "the 135 is a delight to Check A". I would add to those statements it's brilliant OEI performance and the superb training mode in the CPDS versions.
My point is that there's probably not a lot to choose between the 135 and the 902, but that some people seem desperate to run the latter down without a lot of evidence to support their views.
Long may they BOTH continue in service!!
Last edited by wallsend; 13th Dec 2010 at 19:07.
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They all have a little something
Well said Wallsend,
Aircraft availability being discussed in a public forum is a bit of a no no when it comes to Police Aircraft, so well done in not 'dropping a line' to the press who after all rely on tidbits from operators to provide copy and therefore justify it's inclusion their 'magazine'. if we were a little more circumspect in our dealings with the press perhaps they would have to start to work for a living!
Both aircraft have something to offer in the Police/HEMS role, Both have their evangelists and doomsayers.
Ultimately it's down to what suits the unit at the time as to which gets purchased.
Both aircraft do the job and do it well, may it continue into the future.
Aircraft availability being discussed in a public forum is a bit of a no no when it comes to Police Aircraft, so well done in not 'dropping a line' to the press who after all rely on tidbits from operators to provide copy and therefore justify it's inclusion their 'magazine'. if we were a little more circumspect in our dealings with the press perhaps they would have to start to work for a living!
Both aircraft have something to offer in the Police/HEMS role, Both have their evangelists and doomsayers.
Ultimately it's down to what suits the unit at the time as to which gets purchased.
Both aircraft do the job and do it well, may it continue into the future.
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MD - price rise or no price rise?
Getting back on the thread so to speak...Whats the news over in the Mesa MD shop these days, now we've heard about the northern 135 maintenance saga.
The Dauphin seems to be the cab of choice for ambulance work...ask the great north charity as they have just purchased 2 x N2's after trying the 902 in the past..
Is LT still saying she's in it for the long haul (ten years or more) or IS she actually trying to sell the MD line after losing the military contract?
All I can only see on her web pages, is that she's just talking about what a fantastic spokesman/person for womans issues she is these days, no mention about MD and its line?
Who owns the most in the MD partnership.... her or her right hand man Joep? I havent heard much from him about MD lately?
The Dauphin seems to be the cab of choice for ambulance work...ask the great north charity as they have just purchased 2 x N2's after trying the 902 in the past..
Is LT still saying she's in it for the long haul (ten years or more) or IS she actually trying to sell the MD line after losing the military contract?
All I can only see on her web pages, is that she's just talking about what a fantastic spokesman/person for womans issues she is these days, no mention about MD and its line?
Who owns the most in the MD partnership.... her or her right hand man Joep? I havent heard much from him about MD lately?
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props stopped
i think you may find thats down to money the 2 N2,S they have bought are 19/20 year old helicopters if they bought 2x 902 they would proberbly would have paid double or treble the amount
they also only leased the 902 not bought it
mfriskel
i agree with you when i had my 600 i got told by loads of people that the notar was no good when i asked them which notar they had flown it was none they got told by someone ,but when they flew it most people loved it it does have problems but most helicopters have, i think there is only one near perfect helicopter the gazelle
i can remember when you did a demonstation for me at HAI and showed me how to land without using pedals in a storm drain in LA ,then you lifted off without pedals too that sold it to me
i dont have any problem with any critism of the 520/600/902 but when it comes by hearsay and the pilots never been in one it annoys me
in uk sport we have a saying non players off the pitch
The Dauphin seems to be the cab of choice for ambulance work...ask the great north charity as they have just purchased 2 x N2's after trying the 902 in the past..
they also only leased the 902 not bought it
mfriskel
i agree with you when i had my 600 i got told by loads of people that the notar was no good when i asked them which notar they had flown it was none they got told by someone ,but when they flew it most people loved it it does have problems but most helicopters have, i think there is only one near perfect helicopter the gazelle
i can remember when you did a demonstation for me at HAI and showed me how to land without using pedals in a storm drain in LA ,then you lifted off without pedals too that sold it to me
i dont have any problem with any critism of the 520/600/902 but when it comes by hearsay and the pilots never been in one it annoys me
in uk sport we have a saying non players off the pitch
Last edited by md 600 driver; 13th Dec 2010 at 21:20.
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Mesa - LT's narnia
md driver,
As seniortrooper so aptly put it, I think you will find they said "notar" to another 902, leased or not
Anyone got any news from Mesa on whats really going on with the company or should I say LT?
Ps, I havent had my xmas card off LT yet
As seniortrooper so aptly put it, I think you will find they said "notar" to another 902, leased or not
Anyone got any news from Mesa on whats really going on with the company or should I say LT?
Ps, I havent had my xmas card off LT yet
Props Stopped
You seem to have blundered into some breaking news there..... or entered a time warp..... Joep????? He was the previous owner wasn't he? He who is and has been harried by the Dutch authorities for [allegedly] doing naughty things gave up with MD when LT and her [regularly changing] gang moved in as saviours.
LT and Patriarch are the money behind MD, and LT is Patriarch.
On the other thing raised by Wagging Finger about sensible reporting of aircraft availability ...... I think you will find that some publications that are based upon persons who were playing the cop game when you were likely in nappies actually manage to get that type of news out after the event - with the notable exception of such as the WMP 135 which was severely and publicly, 'offline' as national news before the report appeared.
You could of course take exception to the recent nationally available and regionally reported Press Release from a midlands aircraft supplier that inserted an A109 into a RAF airfield north of Huntingdon simply because the police aircraft was missing on maintenance for 5 days.
It will be back in service before I report that public domain story.
You seem to have blundered into some breaking news there..... or entered a time warp..... Joep????? He was the previous owner wasn't he? He who is and has been harried by the Dutch authorities for [allegedly] doing naughty things gave up with MD when LT and her [regularly changing] gang moved in as saviours.
LT and Patriarch are the money behind MD, and LT is Patriarch.
On the other thing raised by Wagging Finger about sensible reporting of aircraft availability ...... I think you will find that some publications that are based upon persons who were playing the cop game when you were likely in nappies actually manage to get that type of news out after the event - with the notable exception of such as the WMP 135 which was severely and publicly, 'offline' as national news before the report appeared.
You could of course take exception to the recent nationally available and regionally reported Press Release from a midlands aircraft supplier that inserted an A109 into a RAF airfield north of Huntingdon simply because the police aircraft was missing on maintenance for 5 days.
It will be back in service before I report that public domain story.
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Time warp
PAN,
I cant stop humming that "time warp" song now
I think you may find Joep still has his fingers in MD, and is closely working with LT on other projects. Is he really the money behind LT after all, and are all these revolving doors with company names just a smoke screen.
He never left MD and is still a shareholder I believe.
I'm sure it will all come out eventually, but will it be only in the Dutch press again
I cant stop humming that "time warp" song now
I think you may find Joep still has his fingers in MD, and is closely working with LT on other projects. Is he really the money behind LT after all, and are all these revolving doors with company names just a smoke screen.
He never left MD and is still a shareholder I believe.
I'm sure it will all come out eventually, but will it be only in the Dutch press again
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Props stopped you said re GNAA and 902: "I think you will find they said "notar" to another 902, leased or not"
Totally wrong. I was there. They loved it - wanted 2 or 3 but too expensive.
Message ends.
Totally wrong. I was there. They loved it - wanted 2 or 3 but too expensive.
Message ends.
MD600 and wallsend (I suspect I know you). You're a pair of little tinkers aren't you! Repetitive and monotonous
Wallsend - read my earlier post more carefully old boy. I haven't mentioned the handling characteristics or performance of said aircraft, have I? Not once have I condemned it for it's capabilities as a HEMS cab (or even a police cab for that matter).
What has knifed the 902 in the back (and now it's time for me to be repetitive) is the maintenance and quality support by the OEM. Crap is too kind a word. The company is run by outsiders who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in aviation let alone running a helicopter production line. They have no research division, no customer after care department and so it goes on. There are no plans to give it a mid life upgrade.
Once you've bought the cab...guess what, you're on your own and by that I mean it's left to the subsidiary company (local supplier) to offer these services if they so wish. Luckily, the likes of PAS are such a company but even they struggle to hide the mess MD Helicopters has turned out to be.
I haven't driven a Delorean, I haven't been to the moon, but guess what - one doesn't need to be there / do that, to know what the problems are. Do you understand now?
The 902 is being hindered by its dysfunctional parent company.....it is doomed and in 5-10 yrs time, if nothing changes, there won't be any left in the UK. And I haven't even mentioned costs
Wallsend - read my earlier post more carefully old boy. I haven't mentioned the handling characteristics or performance of said aircraft, have I? Not once have I condemned it for it's capabilities as a HEMS cab (or even a police cab for that matter).
What has knifed the 902 in the back (and now it's time for me to be repetitive) is the maintenance and quality support by the OEM. Crap is too kind a word. The company is run by outsiders who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in aviation let alone running a helicopter production line. They have no research division, no customer after care department and so it goes on. There are no plans to give it a mid life upgrade.
Once you've bought the cab...guess what, you're on your own and by that I mean it's left to the subsidiary company (local supplier) to offer these services if they so wish. Luckily, the likes of PAS are such a company but even they struggle to hide the mess MD Helicopters has turned out to be.
I haven't driven a Delorean, I haven't been to the moon, but guess what - one doesn't need to be there / do that, to know what the problems are. Do you understand now?
The 902 is being hindered by its dysfunctional parent company.....it is doomed and in 5-10 yrs time, if nothing changes, there won't be any left in the UK. And I haven't even mentioned costs
