British police helicopter attacked on ground
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I am not going to go into the rights and wrongs of the Police using Helicopters, I am sure if the Telegraph(MP's Expenses) did an audit on every flight to see what came out of it there would be more rantings to get them out of the sky. I personally think if they've saved one life then they are worth it but my point is simply this. They cost a fortune to lease/buy, insure, equip with the latest technology, service, crew and finally hourly fuel burn. It was quoted earlier about 900 hours and >£400K. Now taking all this into mind, why would you not make sure that such a fragile expensive asset is properly protected on the ground. What did it cost to build a 4 ft wall relative to erecting a steel fence with razor wire. Even if it was more expensive surely the means justify the end...well they do on reading this story. Don't see our Romani friends going into the carpark at the local station and doing the same to cars. As for Jeyteeto's comment " Big electric fences and security cost lots of money. Guess what??? Senior officers don't have lots of money. " Thats the most pathetic thing I've read on PPrune for a long time If you're going to do a job do it right, make the area secure and not for lots of money. Why not get the heli, don't service it and take civilians up for their birthday that might help the cost. PATHETIC do it right or not at all!
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My brother had his Freelander plus trailer stolen by Pikeys. They left it in a quiet area for 12 hours or to make sure there was no Tracker on it before coming back to take it away. In the meantime somebody who knew my brother spotted it and called him with the location. When he arrived it had gone, but the locals told him that two pikeys from the local camp had just driven off in it.
So..off he went to local council-run pikey camp. The man on the gate confirmed that Pikey 1 and 2 had just driven into the camp in the Freelander. Great said my brother, so you'll confirm that to the Police then? "You must be f**g joking mate " was the reply.
Undaunted off he went to the Plod shop and told them the tale. They were not interested in the slightest, and like the earlier posting told him to claim on his insurance as there was no point even arresting anybody as they would give false names, get out on bail and never be seen again.
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
In the end he had no choice but to claim on the insurance which ends up costing all of us in the end (except the uninsured Pikeys of course)
No "no-go areas"? Make your own minds up.
So..off he went to local council-run pikey camp. The man on the gate confirmed that Pikey 1 and 2 had just driven into the camp in the Freelander. Great said my brother, so you'll confirm that to the Police then? "You must be f**g joking mate " was the reply.
Undaunted off he went to the Plod shop and told them the tale. They were not interested in the slightest, and like the earlier posting told him to claim on his insurance as there was no point even arresting anybody as they would give false names, get out on bail and never be seen again.
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
In the end he had no choice but to claim on the insurance which ends up costing all of us in the end (except the uninsured Pikeys of course)
No "no-go areas"? Make your own minds up.
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Flaxton
How are you me old? How's Mick Please PM me about him.
While flying Police Heli in an unnamed county we followed a stolen car, which was being tailed by ground units, as it went into a pikey site. Gate closed, ground units stayed at the gate. We filmed pikeys decamp into a caravan, told the control room which caravan on the site. No action was taken, all coppers were called off, we were told to RTB.
Too dangerous/difficult for plod to enter the pikey site. It was definitely a no-go area. Stolen car owner would have had to claim insurance and Mr pikey would have moved it on when it all went quiet.
It would have taken a major operation with police armed to the teeth and with protective gear to be able to enter the pikey site. They've got rights. And there's Elf 'n' Safety to consider for Plod.
Bloody marvelous
How are you me old? How's Mick Please PM me about him.
While flying Police Heli in an unnamed county we followed a stolen car, which was being tailed by ground units, as it went into a pikey site. Gate closed, ground units stayed at the gate. We filmed pikeys decamp into a caravan, told the control room which caravan on the site. No action was taken, all coppers were called off, we were told to RTB.
Too dangerous/difficult for plod to enter the pikey site. It was definitely a no-go area. Stolen car owner would have had to claim insurance and Mr pikey would have moved it on when it all went quiet.
It would have taken a major operation with police armed to the teeth and with protective gear to be able to enter the pikey site. They've got rights. And there's Elf 'n' Safety to consider for Plod.
Bloody marvelous
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So a couple more stories with no dates / names / places. Why can you not name and shame then if you feel so strongly. If it was my force I would, without hesitation. Or if I were involved in such an incident I would do something about it.
Really? For what?
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
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So my comment was the most pathetic thing someone has heard, if we can't do it right then don't do it at all.
You have absolutely no idea of the real world my good chap. If we did what YOU say then I will let you in to a secret. After 24 years in the RAF, working Ireland and round the world, I saw the military operating on a shoestring making things work with no money and assets. If we can't do it right then don't do it at all, lets get rid of the armed services.
My missus works in child and vunerable adult protection. Her case load is off the clock and they do their best with no money or assets. Lets get rid of them.
The police are the same, the ambo service ditto, all short of cash and making do, lets get rid of them. Anything Government is in the same boat, don't even start with the NHS.
So my comments are pathetic, get the money and we will build the fences and pay for the power to electrify them. While you are there, could you find the money to cover the cost of stationery next jan-mar? We ran out of money this year, or should we just close down? If you can't afford a pencil, how can you buy extra security? if we can't do it right then don't do it at all.
That was a big PATHETIC, where is the money valve guide????????????
You have absolutely no idea of the real world my good chap. If we did what YOU say then I will let you in to a secret. After 24 years in the RAF, working Ireland and round the world, I saw the military operating on a shoestring making things work with no money and assets. If we can't do it right then don't do it at all, lets get rid of the armed services.
My missus works in child and vunerable adult protection. Her case load is off the clock and they do their best with no money or assets. Lets get rid of them.
The police are the same, the ambo service ditto, all short of cash and making do, lets get rid of them. Anything Government is in the same boat, don't even start with the NHS.
So my comments are pathetic, get the money and we will build the fences and pay for the power to electrify them. While you are there, could you find the money to cover the cost of stationery next jan-mar? We ran out of money this year, or should we just close down? If you can't afford a pencil, how can you buy extra security? if we can't do it right then don't do it at all.
That was a big PATHETIC, where is the money valve guide????????????
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Thats what we do up here, it works well because we get free security from the RAF. The downside is an extra 3 minutes transit to incidents. I can handle constructive criticism from people on this site. There ARE improvements we can make and savings as well. However, the throwaway line from valve man really annoyed me. In the perfect world, everything is perfect. For over 27 years, myself and thousands of my colleagues have tried to make the best of a bad lot. Just understand, we do EVERYTHING (except MP expenses, seriously) on a shoestring. The comment about if you can do it right don't do it at all is total bull. NOTHING would get done in ANY public service.
To pacify the moaners, the whole police air support setup is being reviewed. Joint basing, regional tasking, multi-aircraft purchase discounts and many many other issues are being looked at. The mid-management seem to be up to the job and I personally think that there are some great ideas doing the rounds. As always it will have to be done within budget, but its early early days.
To pacify the moaners, the whole police air support setup is being reviewed. Joint basing, regional tasking, multi-aircraft purchase discounts and many many other issues are being looked at. The mid-management seem to be up to the job and I personally think that there are some great ideas doing the rounds. As always it will have to be done within budget, but its early early days.
It has always been about balance.
No bottomless pit of money, ideas but only so far as the money allows.
When the Met got their Bell 222's in 1980 there were well founded fears about [Irish] terrorism and there were brill ideas about double fences and CCTV every 10 yards at Lippitts Hill. The 'short term' answer was a pair of cops a six-gun and a dog. Problem was when the cop with the gun drew it the dog would take his hand off....
That did not work and was expensive so they found some another way of doing it with just the single fence.
The same with Surrey. More than a decade ago you could see that the site was vulnerable.... piece of cake to attack .... but this was England and although there were precedents in rough parts of the UK it did not happen in Surrey...
Well it did not happen for more than a decade and its clear now the disgusting 'walk backwards' ethos* of modern policing has allowed this to creep up and bite Surrey twice.
So, now ten years of cheapness on, they need to do something and I guess its build a giant wall or moat. From other pages of the Telegraph it is clear that there are certain MP's who have information on moats and how to keep them clean at taxpayers expense.
The alternative is to run*.
Overall it proves one thing very clearly to those denigrating air support across this forum.
Those violent 'gentlemen' in Surrey had a very firm belief in the power of air support and wished to remove it.
Despite the cost of this event I think it actually underlines its value as an asset a great deal.
No bottomless pit of money, ideas but only so far as the money allows.
When the Met got their Bell 222's in 1980 there were well founded fears about [Irish] terrorism and there were brill ideas about double fences and CCTV every 10 yards at Lippitts Hill. The 'short term' answer was a pair of cops a six-gun and a dog. Problem was when the cop with the gun drew it the dog would take his hand off....
That did not work and was expensive so they found some another way of doing it with just the single fence.
The same with Surrey. More than a decade ago you could see that the site was vulnerable.... piece of cake to attack .... but this was England and although there were precedents in rough parts of the UK it did not happen in Surrey...
Well it did not happen for more than a decade and its clear now the disgusting 'walk backwards' ethos* of modern policing has allowed this to creep up and bite Surrey twice.
So, now ten years of cheapness on, they need to do something and I guess its build a giant wall or moat. From other pages of the Telegraph it is clear that there are certain MP's who have information on moats and how to keep them clean at taxpayers expense.
The alternative is to run*.
Overall it proves one thing very clearly to those denigrating air support across this forum.
Those violent 'gentlemen' in Surrey had a very firm belief in the power of air support and wished to remove it.
Despite the cost of this event I think it actually underlines its value as an asset a great deal.
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Our bobbies have no qualms of entering a travellers site, and they do it on a regular basis.
In my experience 80% of the people in the Police have been given the "Can Do" gene at birth.
In my experience 80% of the people in the Police have been given the "Can Do" gene at birth.
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It would appear to me from what I read here that Surrey police recognised that the current standard operating procedure was not working as explained by the earlier posts, and were working on a operation to redress the ballance.
This obviously upset the members of the travelling community who could see their nice little scam being upset like the proverbial apple cart and therefore decided to do something about it.
From my point of view, congratulations to Surrey police for recognising the problem, planning the op and implementing it.
This should however be a wake up call to the powers that be regarding the security of a vital but expensive piece of police equipment.
This obviously upset the members of the travelling community who could see their nice little scam being upset like the proverbial apple cart and therefore decided to do something about it.
From my point of view, congratulations to Surrey police for recognising the problem, planning the op and implementing it.
This should however be a wake up call to the powers that be regarding the security of a vital but expensive piece of police equipment.
Brilliant Stuff,
Unfortunately of that 20% around 5% went on 'elf n safety courses and some 15% took promotion to ensure that the masses listened to the safety czars!
Its not that new, its just someone is listening to them all of a sudden.
Unfortunately of that 20% around 5% went on 'elf n safety courses and some 15% took promotion to ensure that the masses listened to the safety czars!
Its not that new, its just someone is listening to them all of a sudden.
jonwilly, you wrote "Memory says that G-BOOV the Liverpool Polis Heli had a Contract placed on it by Scouse Hoods and I think it was firebombed but time does dim the braincells.
Mighty Gem should be able to confirm.
john"
You are correct - was late 80's or early 90's - jayteeto may recall ( JC was the SPLOT at the time I think, with the 2 Dave's on his crew ). I can't remember whether they came in through the old north airfield or through the GPO gate , but they got to G-OV where it used to park in the NE corner of the apron. Luckily, they weren't too smart & the bottle bouced off & ignited on the ground - no serious damage. Dunno if they were ever caught. I do know it was something of a shock to the Tower ATCO at the time !
(not me btw)
DM
Mighty Gem should be able to confirm.
john"
You are correct - was late 80's or early 90's - jayteeto may recall ( JC was the SPLOT at the time I think, with the 2 Dave's on his crew ). I can't remember whether they came in through the old north airfield or through the GPO gate , but they got to G-OV where it used to park in the NE corner of the apron. Luckily, they weren't too smart & the bottle bouced off & ignited on the ground - no serious damage. Dunno if they were ever caught. I do know it was something of a shock to the Tower ATCO at the time !
(not me btw)DM
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DBChopper
Your implication is that the story is made up? Why would I want to do that? The coppers I worked with were top drawer and they were just as frustrated at the hierarchy stopping them from getting a job done. Sure, I could go in to my logbook and give you the date and place, I could even tell you the pikey site (now that I live abroad) but what the hell use is that?
The frustrations were well spelled out at the time by the force members in question. If you choose to believe it's a fairy story it's no skin off my nose mate.
Your implication is that the story is made up? Why would I want to do that? The coppers I worked with were top drawer and they were just as frustrated at the hierarchy stopping them from getting a job done. Sure, I could go in to my logbook and give you the date and place, I could even tell you the pikey site (now that I live abroad) but what the hell use is that?
The frustrations were well spelled out at the time by the force members in question. If you choose to believe it's a fairy story it's no skin off my nose mate.
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Quote:
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
Really? For what?
You're the copper, mate - you work it out. Breach of the Peace? Threatening behaviour? Wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness?
I think maybe it was because he asked Mr. Desk Sergeant why he couldn't even be arsed getting off his fat lazy backside to retrieve this £20,000 vehicle even though the donkey detective work had already been done for him. But probably not as politely as that.....
When he tried to argue the toss all he ended up doing was getting up the nose of Mr Plod to the extent that he nearly got himself arrested for his trouble.
Really? For what?
You're the copper, mate - you work it out. Breach of the Peace? Threatening behaviour? Wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness?
I think maybe it was because he asked Mr. Desk Sergeant why he couldn't even be arsed getting off his fat lazy backside to retrieve this £20,000 vehicle even though the donkey detective work had already been done for him. But probably not as politely as that.....
Last edited by Flaxton Flyer; 16th May 2009 at 17:01. Reason: spelling
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To make matters clear for those asking about so called 'no go areas' for police in England.
There are NO 'no go areas' for police.
What we are talking about here are decisions that have to be made regardig the health and safety spects of entering potentially dangerous areas.
It has to be borne in mind that on a normal working day there are not enough police officers working to proivide sufficient backup should the excreta interface with the air circulatory device and also they would be entering an area where they would not only be outnumbered but where the other parties would have access to weapons etc.
It ain't The Bill.
Travellers sites are not no go areas but these things have to be properly planned in advance.
There are NO 'no go areas' for police.
What we are talking about here are decisions that have to be made regardig the health and safety spects of entering potentially dangerous areas.
It has to be borne in mind that on a normal working day there are not enough police officers working to proivide sufficient backup should the excreta interface with the air circulatory device and also they would be entering an area where they would not only be outnumbered but where the other parties would have access to weapons etc.
It ain't The Bill.
Travellers sites are not no go areas but these things have to be properly planned in advance.
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Jayteeto
Jayteeto, keep your pants on!! My point is that the cost of the whole heli operation is not a shoestring or anything like it. Assuming the wall was built at 4 ft around the heli pad area would it not have made more economic sense to have fenced it instead. I can't imagine it costing anymore, infact I think it would be less. The area would be far more secure and this would hopefully not have been able to take place with such ease. Even now would it not be better to fly a few hours less per week an secure the area with the money saved. And before you say that you couldn't do that, its not flying just now because of the damage never mind the costs! You refer to the NHS etc and budgets, we all have to operate within tight and getting tighter budgets but common sense has to prevail. Appears to be sadly lacking here
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Your implication is that the story is made up?
If you choose to believe it's a fairy story it's no skin off my nose mate.
The coppers I worked with were top drawer and they were just as frustrated at the hierarchy stopping them from getting a job done.
And as for Flaxton Flyer's:
You're the copper, mate - you work it out. Breach of the Peace? Threatening behaviour? Wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness?
I like the last one, but I suspect it wouldn't stand up in court any more than the "standing by a pedestrian crossing with intent to cross the road" would
My point is, I find the whole story a little hard to believe. To be fair, perhaps it is because I don't want to believe it from a professional standpoint, but I would like to make it clear that the British police don't make a habit of arresting people just because we think they are a bit whingey about having their stuff nicked. And in any case there aren't laws that let us do it unless they go really berserk. And that's fairly unusual.
Stories change to fit the point the teller is trying to illustrate (no, FF, I'm not saying you are lying) and if I had a pound for the number of times an understandably stressed victim of crime has interpreted a lack of ability on the part of the police to act at that moment, whether due to lack of resources / lack of legal powers / whatever, as:
They were not interested in the slightest
